Talk:Bretons

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Digital Public History

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2023 and 1 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MLB0121 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by MLB0121 (talk) 21:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Indigenous peoples categorisation

I've reverted the addition of this article to Category:Indigenous peoples of Europe as that categorisation wasn't supported by a reliable source in the article, which doesn't mention anything about the Bretons being considered an indigenous people. If there are reliable sources supporting the categorisation, they can be discussed here. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:24, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

This source contrasts Bretons with indigenous peoples, and this one states "The Bretons, from Brittany, do not stand on the same vulnerable and disadvantaged plane as indigenous peoples". Cordless Larry (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to what relevance a comparison in the level of disadvantage/vulnerability has to a discussion on whether it's legitimate to refer to the Bretons as indigenous. As we covered in our back and forth, the word 'indigenous' "...is derived from the Latin word indigena, meaning sprung from the land, native", therefore how are you (seemingly) coming to the conclusion that what makes a group indigenous is dependent upon whether they face some form of oppression or societal disadvantage? Alssa1 (talk) 15:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not. The appropriate standard, per WP:V, is whether reliable sources describe them as an indigenous group. What are your sources that state that they are? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:50, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

The reliable sources say that Bretons are native to Brittany, and the article you referred to previously says that indigenous is synonymous with native. Alssa1 (talk) 17:50, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

You still haven't provided a source (and it needs to describe Bretons as an indigenous people). Cordless Larry (talk) 17:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Searching for further sources, I found this useful explainer of Europe's indigenous peoples. Note that Bretons aren't included. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Well there's this, where Bretons are listed by the University of Northern Kentucky in The Survival of Indigenous Peoples as such. There's this, where Bretons are listed in their World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples - France : Bretons. In addition to this, I remind you that indigenous and native are synonyms of one another. Your own source states "...there is no universally agreed definition of what it means to be indigenous". Alssa1 (talk) 12:18, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The second source covers minorities as well as indigenous peoples, and doesn't make clear which Bretons are included as, so that leaves us one source describing them as such (and several saying they're not an indigenous people). Native might be a synonym for indigenous in a broader sense (not that the native description is sourced), but indigenous peoples has a more specific meaning. Even if there's not a single, authoritative definition, those definitions that exist tend to include that the group has been subject to colonisation. For example, the ILO defines them as "peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries and who, irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions". As Grote notes, the term isn't much used to describe minority groups in Europe, except on the northern and eastern fringes (e.g. the Sámi). Cordless Larry (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

References

English people - related ethnic group (again)

A editor removed English people from the related ethnic groups in the infobox, was reverted and removed it again[1]. I reverted that but I see that 10 years ago it was a matter of some controversy. It shouldn't be. The Celts in England didn't go anywhere when the Saxons came. We know that from genetics. Their language was replaced so they cannot be linguistically defined as Celts, except the Cornish, who seem to have merited their own mention here. And actually that infobox is a bit of a nonsense, as Bretons are surely as closely related to the French as they are to the Scots or Irish (if not moreso). The real problem here is that the infobox is not a summary of anything in the page on this. At least, not a good summary. The Breton migration came from England (including but not limited to Cornwall) and Wales, as well as parts of what is now Scotland. But what does related ethnicity even mean here? Certainly not that those who may have come from the Old North are related to Gaels who migrated in there. I think related ethnicity here should simply be removed. It is not adding any useful and unambiguous information to the reader. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

And to add, I have made a bold edit per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The only summary information that can be supported by the main text is that Bretons are related to Celtic Britons. I have thus made a bold edit to that effect. Should anyone wish to revert it, please first read INFOBOXPURPOSE. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Before I answer the initial point(s), let's be clear about procedure: you're making a bold change to a long-standing version, we have a process for this: WP:BRD - a bold change is made, it's reverted, and then we discuss. You don't make multiple bold changes before we have had an opportunity to come to some dispute resolution via a discussion.

On the point about linguistics, we're not talking about language, we're talking about people and only people. It is true that there is a Cornish language, but most Cornish people don't speak Cornish, so there's no reason to talk about language when it comes to this 'relatedness' point.

I think the reason for the original inclusion derives from a point about ethnogenesis; namely that the Cornish, Bretons, Welsh and English entirely (or in part) descend from the same historical ethnic group(s), and that is proved by both the history and genetics (particularly in the English case) - very happy to provide the sources to support this if need be.

The point about the infobox is a bit of a weird one, the Template:Infobox ethnic group has decided to include a related groups section and I don't quite see how the current version of the Bretons page conflicts with the purpose of that specific section. Alssa1 (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)