Talk:Billy the Kid/Archive 1

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Initial text

This is obviously not done yet — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 23:21, 6 December 2002 (UTC)

ReDirections

Redirects: Henry McCarty, William Henry Bonney, William Bonney, William H. Bonney

Fun!

This article is really great fun to read! But how does the story end?? reading...

--zeno 15:06 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

I guess I'll have to get around to finishing it... Hopefully soon. --mav

Done. --mav 07:03, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Some "A"hole decided to ruin this article with a completely stupid statement. There is nothing fun about vandalism.

Picture

The picture up top and the full picture below are mirrow images of each other, undoubtably because, as the caption of the full picture says, one is a "Reversed ferrotype photo". Shouldn't the other be flipped, then, too? ~Neil

Birth Date

The first paragraph state he was born in 1858 but on the side it statte 1859. I'm no expert on the subject so I won't change anything but if someone who know could correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guilligan (talk • contribs) 12:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Death Date

There is no EVIDENCE that Billy The Kid actually died in 1881, there should be a paragragh saying IT IS still a mystery.

No, there shouldn't be a paragraph saying it is still a mystery. Every credible historian says Billy died in 1881. While it is fine to debate this, history says Billy was killed on July 14, 1881, and unless proven otherwise, the wording of this article is the way it should be.comment added by Shootseven (talk • contribs) 20:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Did Billy the Kid really die on the 14th of July? I have seen elsewhere he died on the 13th, and in a few places even the 15th. Any idea if any of this is correct? There is a lot of confusion surrounding his death, and I would appreciate any help anyone can give me. Thanks SkeeloBob 19:24, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Worth mentioning Ft Sumpter residents say nothing's happened there since Garrett shot him? Trekphiler 05:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

A lot of people say that Billy the Kid was never married, but that is not true, he was married 7 times from the time that he was 17 to the time that he died. It is not known exactly how many kids he had, but it is said that he had at least 7 kids that he knew about. he did sleeo around a lot, even when he was married. it was also said that at one point he did have a realationship with one of his 4 daughters.

Can you source that? 99.244.167.18 (talk) 22:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

To quote a comment from this section "Every credible historian says Billy died in 1881." With all due respect, is this not an example of a weasel word?

Given the irrefutable fact that no less than six people who knew Billy the Kid all signed affidavits in 1949 stating that Ollie P. Roberts was in fact Billy the Kid (See the separate wiki entries for both Oll P Roberts and Jessie Evans) how is it that this entry does not at least point/link to the separate entries for Roberts and/or Evans instead of listing their stories as "Imposters"? This entry seems to lack appropriate balance as a result with regard to the possibility that Bily the Kid was not killed in 1881.

As far as "credible historians" and the credibilty of this site to present history in a balanced and well documented fashion is concerned, consider this quote from the article sited as source 18:

"In an e-mail from his home in England, historian Frederick Nolan says that even if Sullivan and Sederwall were to acquire the correct DNA from all the correct corpses, it would only confirm what history already knows--that Billy the Kid died in Fort Sumner on July 14, 1881.

""This disgraceful charade is historical inconsequentiality gone mad," Nolan wrote. "... It's sad to have to, yet again, rev up a steam engine to squash such an insignificant bug. But although it's insignificant, it's also highly toxic.""

So, according to Nolan seeking conclusive DNA evidence is a "disgracful charade"? Perhaps all six people that met Ollie P Roberts and also knew Bily the Kid were wrong, perhaps their advanced age played a role in them mistakenly believing Roberts was Billy the Kid, yet what credible historian would fail to address such facts? Facts that are indeed part of the historical record, facts that are not going away simply because one historian chooses to turn a blind eye.

Consider the historians that challenged the Soviet/Polish propaganda of 4 million killed at Auschwitz (Gerald Reitlinger and Raul Hilberg being the first two). Their work did not change the overall death toll of the Holocaust, but most certainly did provide for a clearer understanding. This is an example of how credible historians operate. When the evidence is conflicting they research.

Yet why would a credible historian make such vociferous remarks regarding the use of DNA evidence to support or refute the claims of six people that actually knew Billy the Kid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.2.120.136 (talk) 07:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Mesilla?

The entry says that after the Stinking Springs capture, he was held in a town called Mesilla. I have several sources that say that he was taken to Las Vegas, New Mexico and thence to Santa Fe. His stay in the Las Vegas jail is documented in the local newspaper. Where does the Mesilla word come from? Uucp 17:24, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

He was taken to Mesilla (near Las Cruces) for his trial. comment added by Shootseven (talk • contribs) 20:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Mesilla

He died on July 14th.

by Samantha O. 13 years old Time 8:51 A.M.

Publicity

I suggest del the Gov's quote on "getting more publicity". It makes him look stupid (OK, it was a stupid thing to say) & isn't really appropriate in tone, I don't think. Ref potential pardon, Y, & say something to "in consideration", & let the local news media make the Gov look a fool. Unless the pardon turns into a fiasco, which (in time...) becomes history.... Trekphiler 06:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Mesilla

The discussion of the Lincoln County Jail break confuses an earlier Jail break from the Dona Ana County Court House in Mesilla, NM. (Mesilla at the time was the county seat of Dona Ana County. Lincoln is the county seat of Lincoln County.) These are two separate events in Billy's life. Incidently, the building that Billy escaped from had previously served as "Capital" of the Confederate Territory of Arizona during the abortive invasion of NM by Confederate soldiers from Texas.

Thanks, I'll clean that up in the article. --Claygate 13:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

On further review the article version is OK - he was jailed in Mesilla and underwent trial before being transferred to Lincoln where he escaped a week after the transfer. --Claygate 14:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

War in the Guadalupes

Is there really a book called "War in the Guadalupes" with references to the Kid? I can't find any reference to it. --Claygate 02:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Brushy Bill Photographic Evidence Claim

Thre have been several references to a 93% match of Brushy Bill versus Billy the Kid tintype. I cannot find any reproductions of the actual study, however, the people attributed to the study (Acton-Bovik) appear to be some kind of graphics processing researchers [1]. The claims seem dubious because of the low-resolution nature of the tintype and the fact that the human eye (for most people's eyes) doesn't agree with the claims. Is there an actual paper on this to go with the claims? --Claygate 01:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

John Miller

The article says John Miller is a known hoax, but it doesn't say how it was proven. Can anyone explain?

Good question. Maybe it's considered more of a hoax because he's the less favored of the two claimants. However, in pictures it would appear that Miller looked more like the kid than Brushy Bill did. Miller didn't push the story as much as Brushy Bill and Jessie James claimants did. Miller's claimed birth date would have made him too old to be the kid, but I'm not sure if the date has been verified. --Claygate 23:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

It is an interesting point that no record of Miller has been found from before 8/1881

POV in 'Death' section

The justifications provided for Billy the Kid's murders are fairly POV, not to mention a little silly. I am also curious as to which kind of "scientists" determined whose gun was drawn first.

I believe the source for that one is from an episode of "Unsolved History" on the Discovery Channel, from a couple of years ago. They put together some of the written accounts, the layout of the Maxwell ranch, some fancy computer graphics, and deduced it from that. I can't find any current references to that particular show on the web, though. --Claygate 00:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that the Kid was a fast draw. I think that they ambushed him. If he was that easy to kill they would have done it awhile ago. (70.244.114.211 00:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

Sourcing

This article is good but could do with sources for the claims. If it was sourced, it could be feature article material. Capitalistroadster 19:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point - will make an effort to fix this, thanks. --Claygate 02:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Name

I agree with all of the names in here except one. You said that his father's name was Patrick Henry Mccarty. There are alot of websites though that say this is one of Billy the Kid's aliases. Did he use his dad's name, is his dad's name something else, or are those sites wrong?(70.244.114.211 00:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

There is little in the historical record about his father and that's why the article states the variations given for his name. It's possible that Billy might have used his dad's name for one of his aliases so those sites are not necessarily wrong, although the main alias that's in the records (e.g. wanted posters, etc) is William H. Bonney. --Claygate 02:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Srry i didnt write this yesterday. I edited the "escape from lincon" added more detail. Just for the record (70.244.114.211 22:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

Failure of Garrett/Upson Book

Regarding the mention of The Authentic Life of Billy, the Kid as "wildly popular," I have heard quite the opposite; according to Bob Boze Bell in The Illustrated Life and Times of Billy the Kid, "the promotion of the book is poor and very few books are sold. Garrett and Upson will receive little if anything for their efforts." "Wildly sensationalistic" is pretty accurate, though. Elkoref 22:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The 'Popular' part has been removed pending a closer look into this. --mav 13:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Wickham von Bonnett

Bonnet, Bonnette, or Bonnet, is inconsequential, as the Franco-Prussian or Normandaise name is spelt all three ways. What is important is that you don't have his signature, and I do. It says nothing here about that frump posted as Billy the Kidd [there was a reason that it was also spelled with two "d's," since it was a family legacy, his mother's maiden name]. And, indeed, he was small and looked like a child; he was only 5'2" which gave him a decided advantage. He had Blue Eyes #10 and blonde hair, so, the frump in the picture is not Billy the Kidd, but a rather stupid stand in who couldn't rob a horse right. Which is why that frump got shot, and, since Garret himself was a horse thief, and Billy and a certain judge and a certain governor knew this, Billy went into the Witness Protection Program established under Ulysses S. Grant. In other words, his death was as pre-arranged as Doc Holiday going to New York City to become a sports writer.

Your history sources are really bad on this one; here's the signature and I have the documents:

great great grandfather's signature

Put that in your university pipe and smoke it.

Where did all the records go after the Civil War, like the census records? They made three copies of each you know. Ask for the records stored in Norad and you might get a better history source.

Sorry, but until now, you've had no sources that are reliable. Billy was, indeed, handsome, and, looked like a boy, nearly all his life. Billy Kidd Bonnett [or Bonnie as the Frenchies in Louisianna liked to say] was not ugly, as that "thing" in the alleged "only known picture of Billy the Kidd" is; there are other pictures, apparently you don't have access to them.

This whole thing has gotten as bad as the universities insisting that Troy was a myth until Schliemann proved them wrong.

And Billy hated Texas, by the way.

new development

Just saw a squib on Yahoo's news site about the exhumation of John Miller's remains. Apparently no charges are being filed against the sheriff who did so in order to have them DNA tested and compared to what were believed to be blood stains from Billy in 1880. Not clear as to the result. Does someone want to follow up?

It doesn't seem like there was anything noteworthy with respect to the real Kid, or they would have been some big noise about it when they did the DNA test. The logic of what they were trying to do was kind of flawed, e.g. they used the blood from a wood slab where Billy died in Fort Sumner. If Billy died on the slab, then what were they trying to find in that test, from the bones of the other guy who died much later? --Claygate 22:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I moved the Brushy Bill and John Miller pieces into separate sections, and added a bit about the DNA tests on Miller. Presumably if any test results are ever made public, this section will be updated appropriately. — Loadmaster 21:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you really mean personable?

67.71.186.118 18:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)You describe his appearance, then go on to say he was "personable", which means "handsome". In the context, I think you mean to say he was outgoing or friendly.

Yes, he was described that way by a reporter for the Las Vegas (NM) Gazette. I'll recheck and make sure that it reflects what the reporter said. --Claygate 19:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

To Claygate, your use of the word "personable" is correct in the context in which you use the word. "Personable" does indicate a pleasing appearance, to some extent, but it generally refers to one's personality and manner toward others. (I have no opinion as to the KID's "personability" but your vocabulary is correct in context. Sorry if I'm not putting this comment in the exactly correct manner. This is my first time doing this.) Petroniares 21:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In this case it's describing his personality more than appearance and was likely the meaning originally attached to the reporter's comments. It's mainly in there to indicate that the Kid had more dimensions than just being a gunslinger. Besides the reporters comments, the "personable" trait can also be seen in the Kid's personal letters. --Claygate 23:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Number of kills

So if you go through the article and count, there are ten murders in which Billy the Kid was involved; not nine as it is claimed later in the article. So which is it? ClovisPt 23:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wild West magazine articles

The Feb 2007 issue of Wild West magazine (one of the magazines of historynet.com) contains the following articles:

• Billy the Kid and the U.S. Marshals Service [2]
• Billy the Kid Country (cover story)
• The Controversial Inquests and Burial of Billy the Kid

I've added exetrnal links to historynet.com for two of their stories, the first one above and an older article from 1998. The really interesting article is the third one above, but since this is the cover story of the current issues (printed Dec 2006), it probably won't show up on their website until the issue comes out, perhaps after Jan 2007. Someone should watch this and add the link after they put it up on the web. And use some of the information from the articles to improve the Wiki article, too, of course. — Loadmaster 15:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want to read this article from the wild west magazine dec 2006, i have pasted the link for you to go to. i have been intrested in billy the kid for a number of years now, and i am hoping to find out as much as possible. http://www.historynet.com/magazines/wild_west/4852001.html?featured=y&c=y i know that the book which pat garrett wrote does not depict the life of william as people would like to believe, and does not include the fact that he shot william twice before and also does not include the fact that garrett did not shoot william dead. there is more to the book than most people reallise you just have to read between the lines and follow the leads to where he went and the reasons for which william went there. and he did not use his fathers name as an alias that was williams step-fathers name which he used on a few occsions.... s.tyler

Yeah, see the link I posted above. The third article I cited seems to be biased towards the claim of Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid. — Loadmaster 20:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Clumbsy text

The text that reads 'Five of them were during shootouts in which up to between 5 to 10 or more....' is awkward. A number can be up to 10, but not up to between 5 to 10; the 'or more' makes the sentence utterly rediculous. --Desertphine 23:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Will fix it, thanks. --Claygate 03:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Birthplace Name

I think the name Manhattan Island is unnecessary; back before the other boroughs were incorporated into NYC-proper, the island of Manhattan was known simply as "New York City." The other boroughs were separate municipalities; for instance, the present day borough of Brooklyn was known in the 19th century as the City of Brooklyn. Therefore, if you were talking about New York City back in those days, it was understood that you were talking about the island of Manhattan. Any comments are welcome. Geoffrey C Vargo 01:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Several weeks ago, I raised the claim that Brooklyn, i.e. the City of Brooklyn was the birthplace of Billy. It is part of Brooklyn folk culture and taught in Brooklyn schools. I see no source for the claim that the island of Manhattan is his birthplace. There are other places that claim to be the birthplace. In fact, there is little evidence for any of his reputed birthplaces. This article should state that there is no definitive birthplace for Billy, and there are several claimants. (Incidentally, whay was my prior comment deleted?)

Latichever 03:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Dolan-Murphy gang

Ironically, there is no mention of the Dolan-Murphy gang in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.5.19.199 (talk) 04:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

So what's up wit the gang? Billy rode with them?

When will they dig up Billy's mom so we are certain Billy was killed or not?

All I have read says that Tunstall was armed when he was killed.

We know that, what about governor's pardon, even promised today?

Fact Vs Reputation - Four Men

This estimate is consistent with Michael Wallis', discussing on Book TV his recent book, Billy the Kid: The Endless Ride, that McCarty killed four men. Wallis also said that in the West of those days, anyone killed in a "fair fight" was little mourned.--W8IMP 03:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Music - Jon Bon Jovi

Wouldn't it be worth mentioning the Soundtrack to Young Guns II, Jon Bon Jovi's Blaze of Glory? This was an entire record that focused on Billy the Kid and Pat Garret.

I added the song since it was written expressly for the film. --Claygate 02:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Garrett's baffling betrayal of 'friendship' with The Kid?!?!?

"During this time, the Kid also developed a friendship with an ambitious local bartender and former buffalo hunter named Pat Garrett."

Baffling that this supposed friendship turns into Garrett making The Kid the prime target of a manhunt as soon as elected sheriff with only explanation that Garrett was 'ambitious'. The lack of depth here is stunning. This leaves the reader speculating what more was involved? Was there a further falling out between the two men? Did Garrett befriend the kid with ulterior motive of capturing him later to glorify himself? Anyone knowledgeable of this relationship could greatly improve article by adding to the Pat Garrett section. to Ydef 19:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Death

I watched a documentary and it said the Kid was facing two deputies who he was saying 'Who is it' and didnt realise that Garrett was waiting.

Carlpanzram 21:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Plagarism

Most of this article is a scene by scene description of the Young Guns duology. Hardly any of it is based on real facts! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.240.9 (talk) 11:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Wondering...

1. If you know the photo is inaccurate being reversed, why don't you fix that ? Between having an accurate photo or having the reason why is he considered left handed, I think the first reason should prevail.

2. I simply can't get it, maybe somebody has an explanation... Why would a guy pretend he's Billy the Kid, knowing the prize for the admission of his clain would be a death sentence ?

For attention. Look at eh number of people who claimed to be Jesse James (at least 6). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shootseven (talk • contribs) 20:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

99.194.128.132 wrote "Billy the kid was a fat young man who ate babies. He enjoys sleeping and pooping just as much as the next guy, but wait until you see him eat! Wow. He could possibly eat more than Fatty! (Or Bobby!) SCARY SIGHT. Once in his school years, he wore a thong to school trying to show off to his boyfriend, which instead of ended in his expulsion, got him promoted to semi-principal. (His principal was a little off)" I have reverted this inappropriate change back to the original article, I suggest we lock this article from new users and anonymous IPs. Eatspie (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)