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Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)

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This is a fairly clear case of an article where a Hebrew title is appropriate, meeting the WP:RS benchmark. However, the content of the article still needs to follow Wikipedia conventions. A judicious balance of normal academic/English terms and Orthodox rabbinical/Hebrew terms when describing rabbinical sources describing the Temple worship is called for. For the general reader, if the general reader is intended as the audience... In ictu oculi (talk) 02:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But what is correct WP:RS on the capitalisation here? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Belated correction: Consulting WP:RS sources showed that the above simplistic assumption was wrong - a self-fulfilling idea, check for the romanization of and of course it isn't there, because the WP:RS had "rabbinical court" and "priests" instead. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:02, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Beth din shel Kohanim → Beth din of the priests – Article is a transliteration of he.wikipedia article title. Move per WP:EN and WP:RS based on 1943 Encyclopedia Judaica in footnotes, only English language source used in article. Or merge to beth din. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above suggestion hasn't checked for court of the high priests and other variants. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Stop being disruptive. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move and agree with Lisa because In ictu's suggestion, like so many others he has been making lately, would make it so vague as to be meaningless. This kind of stuff is best done once WP:CONSENSUS is attained with fellow editors, otherwise it's just a slippery slope down to more friction that gets bogged down in wasteful disputes, as is now happening unfortunately. IZAK (talk) 18:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]
  • I suggest Rabbinical court on priestly affairs. "Rabbinical court" looks like a pretty standard way to translated beth din. The modern courts are also beth din/bet din in Hebrew. But they are referred to as "rabinical courts" in English, as you can see here. Kauffner (talk) 06:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 22:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Based on In Ictu's poor presentation (cherry picking?) of sources supporting his attempted move of B'rov am hadrat melech (see the move request on the discussion page), I recommend that his presentation of sources here be taken with a grain of salt until someone else has had the time to check the sources independently with Google Book Search. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, that would be the fifteenth Talk page you have pasted this accusation on. But anyone can go there and run the same Google Book Search I did and see if 1x vs 2,770x is the result. Now as regards to this article; do you have any English WP:RS supporting the present title? (with "of" instead of "shel" obviously) In ictu oculi (talk) 03:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What is he.wikipedia בית דין של כהנים in English?

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Unfortunately WP:naming conventions and WP:article titles guidelines remain, we're actually no nearer to locating the English for this topic. Perhaps a solution is to track the sources used in the original he.wikipedia בית דין של כהנים article, and see if any of them have been translated into English? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop wasting everyone's time. When you're one person arguing against everyone else, you might want to stop a moment and wonder whether your efforts might be more worthwhile or more appreciated elsewhere. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support at least changing the capitalisation to "kohanim" with a lowercase "k". Debresser (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Ma'arechet Ha'Elokut (note my spelling ) above, that "shel" can be replaced by "of". If nobody disagrees, please remind me in some week's time, and I'll make the move. Debresser (talk) 02:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Debresser, I think that would require an RM now. Plus the RM rationale would need evidence that shel can be replaced in a pure Hebrew title according to WP guidelines on using foreign language terms. The term is בית דין של כהנים not כהנים of בית דין, and the term is at least verfiable in Hebrew RS. Given that the RM has concluded, without new editors it'd be odd to create a mish mash coup of état. .... I still believe however that if this article meets WP:Notability then the subject will have been mentioned in an English language book, and a good place to start looking would be sources in the he.wikipedia article in translation.
Unless we're all just lazy. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If there would be consensus, no WP:RM is needed. What is your opinion, for example? Debresser (talk) 03:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Debresser, yes ideally. Or indeed a simple WP:Move with Talk note on a virgin Talk page. But in this case, we haven't even got to the stage of identifying a single English WP:RS. The he.wikipedia footnotes הערות שוליים aren't massively helpful:

הערות שוליים 

  1. ^ ספרי במדבר, פרשת קרח, לפסוק "ושמרו את משמרת הקדש ואת משמרת המזבח"
  2. ^ באחד עשר האמות הפנויות שבין הכותל האחורי של קודש הקודשים לכותל החיצוני של העזרה.
  3. ^ מסכת תענית יז.
  4. ^ כך ע"פ חלק מהדעות באשר להבנת התוספתא מנחות ט, י.
  5. ^ משנה כתובות א, ה; שם י, ב.
  6. ^ תלמוד בבלי, מסכת ראש השנה דף כז, במשנה שם וברש"י.
  7. ^ משנה, ראש מסכת יומא.
  8. ^ תלמוד בבלי, מסכת ערובין, דף לב, עמוד א.

And as you can see 1,2,4,5 are editor comment, not sources, and 3,6,7,8 are not clearly numbered Primary Sources. Ta'anit, b.Rosh Hashanah, Yoma, b.Eruvin, דף לב, Page A. These don't immediately help in identifying the English name for this, but looking beyond he.wikipedia we do find:

  • The Talmud Adin Steinsaltz - 1999 "The courts of twenty-three judges and the courts of three judges would convene after the morning service and sit until noon. The Great Sanhedrin would sit from the time of the daily sacrifice of the morning until the time of the daily.."
  • Encyclopedia Talmudica Volume 4 - Page 81 Yad Ha-Rav Herzog Institute Staff - 1991 "Below this were twenty-three member courts7, known as Minor Sanhedrins. Additionally, there were three- member courts. The Great Sanhedrin sat in the Chamber of Hewn Stone (Lishkath haGazith*) in the Temple. There were also two twenty-three member courts in the Temple: one at the entrance to the courtyard, behind the Women's Court ('Ezrath Nashim*) and in front of the Court of Israelites ('Ezrath Yisra'el*), and another lower down, at the eastern entrance of the Temple Mount inside the heyt8 and before the Women's Court (Sanhedrin 86b).."

I believe what the he.wikipedia article is talking about is one of these 2 Minor Sanhedrins, but difficult to identify from matching up the he.wikipedia article to this, which one is intended? If so it may be worthwhile to simply ask he.w User Peretz Hacohen on his talk page which one of the 2 he meant. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not what I meant. I meant, would you agree that "shel Kohanim" can be changed to "of kohanim"? That such would be an improvement? Debresser (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Right. Sorry, no, I addressed that first above, adding an English "of" in a Hebrew phrase for של that's I think what MasterPi3 calls Yeshivish, what a linguist would call code-switching, but more importantly whatever it's called it's against WP:RS WP:Hebrew.
What do you think of Enc Tal above? Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

בית דין של כהנים, English Mishnah/Talmud translations

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Can we include English translations of the Mishnah/Talmud in the article sources? Ketuboth 5 in

  • The Mishnah translated Herbert Danby - 1933 Page 245 "It is all one whether a woman is the widow of an Israelite or the widow of a priest, her Ketubah is one mina. The court of the Priests14 used to levy 400 zuz15 [as Ketubah] for a virgin, and the Sages did not reprove them"
  • The Jerusalem Talmud translated Jacob Neusner Volume 8 Page 50 New Haven, reprint 1991 2006 "... father-in-law's in Judea without chaperones cannot claim missing virginity since he is alone with her193. Both for an Israel widow as a Cohanim widow194 the ketubah is a mina. The court of priests collected 400 zuz for a virgin195
or secondaries:
  • The Jewish quarterly review: Volume 19 Dropsie University "between Cohanim and plain Israelites : " The court of priests would levy 400 zuz for a maiden, and the Sages did not ...

In ictu oculi (talk) 06:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Please notice in the first source, that it should be "mana" and "zuz", to the best of my knowledge. Debresser (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well mina is mina, but zuz15 was a glitsch. Note also change in WP:CAPS from 1933 to 1991.
Back to the issue in hand note that we actually now have a real rather than invented translation for the article name בית דין של כהנים. Can anyone supplement Danby and Neusner with the Yad Avraham Mishnah http://www.artscroll.com/Books/n1bh.html.?
Note that I changed the internal links of "mina" and "zuz". Iio, you should be more careful. Debresser (talk) 13:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah well it happens when providing sources rather than just shouting (not you). After all this discussion I think I deserve a zuz of credit for being the first person to actually bother to look at the Mishnah, produce the quote and see a real translation. Why didn't anyone else do this sooner, doesn't anyone have an English copy of the Mishnah? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Debresser, excuse me but I ask the same question of your good self after this delete - do you have an English copy of the Mishnah? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you ask? I fail to see the relevance of that fact. Or of the text I removed. Debresser (talk) 16:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Debresser, I only ask because when someone says "the Mishnah says.." in English, one would expect that the term following is what the Mishnah says in English. Just as in French it would says dans la Michna quatre cents zuz devaient être donnés à la cour des prêtres. What the Misnah in Hebrew says is not beth din shel kohanim it is בית דין של כהנים, what the Mishnah says is "court of the priests". So I ask again, do you have a Mishnah in English, what edition is it? Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That delete is a good job of Debresser as an example of superfluousness deletion.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 18:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Marecheth Ho'eElohuth, you've indicated a preference for the Artscroll Schottenstein Talmud over the two English Mishnah above. So how is בית דין של כהנים, rendered in the Schottenstein? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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