Talk:Benz Patent-Motorwagen

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Lacking information

This article lacks information, like how popular it was —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.36.159 (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Surely something has gone wrong with the first sentence:

"'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text''''''''' (or motorcar),
built in 1886, is widely regarded as the first automobile,
that is, a vehicle designed to be propelled by a motor."

I can't see what is intended even. I'm afraid I don't know how to keep the quoted sentence within the page either. Apologies for ignorance. Dawright12 (talk) 10:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fuel?

What kind of fuel did it use? And if it was able to run on many kinds, then, what did people actually use. I would love more information on the engine, like who built it, and when when this kind of engine was first built. Velle (talk) 23:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Distance? Why does the description of the original long distance trip say 194km(120mi) and the modern version everyone can take say 194km(121mi). i could understand there being a difference due to road changes, but that difference is just confusing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.160.233 (talk) 17:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects

I've created an article titled "Benz tricycle" to redirect to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lxsys (talk • contribs) 17:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Siegfried Marcus inventor of the Car

An Austrian Jew is the real inventor of the first modern Car! Fact!

http://www.viennareview.net/on-the-town/scenes-of-vienna/the-forgotten-inventor-of-the-motor-car

http://www.rokemneedlearts.com/carsindepth/wordpressblog/?p=5702 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.201.221 (talk) 11:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

false. the "second" marcus car dates only to 1888-9, two years after the benz made its debut 47.202.227.144 (talk) 09:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fuel

"Ligroin" is not a word known to English-speaking readers. Yes it's linked to Petroleum ether (also not a widely known term), but I think a clause here explaining in general terms what it is or was would be helpful. Sca (talk) 13:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit to lead

There seems to be a discrepancy between articles on this encyclopedia, with multiple articles claiming multiple vehicles as “world’s first automobile”, as an attempt to remedy this, I added “gasoline-powered” to the lead section, as well as citing a book written by a Oxford-graduate professor of cultural history (as my previous attempt was rightfully reverted by a page watcher, as I had forgotten to cite my sources).

I believe this discrepancy is best treated with consensus, and as a result of that, I am open to conversation under this section regarding my edit.

Sincerely, Mugtheboss (talk) 20:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mugtheboss, although there are indeed multiple claims for "the first automobile", I think adding "gasoline-powered" is unnecessary here. The world's first practical car is Benz's one, as steam-powered cars are not practical and electric cars came around later. The pre-Benz cars were rather experimental as they were not put in series production or reliable (as described in the second ref, the German patent website). Cheers, Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 21:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand your point of view on the matter, a lot of the steam-powered automobiles devised before Benz’ were used for various, practical implementations, such as the vehicle mentioned in my first edit summary — Cugnot’s steamer, the Fardier à vapeur — was used for effective transport and delivery of bulk amounts of cannons from one place to another, something mules could not achieve without the use of one mule per cannon.

Example from France in 1891:

And for the transport of passengers, vehicles such as Trevithick’s steam car were invented in the early 19th century, his invention alone was a significant development in the evolution of the automobile,^[1] and steam automobiles produced later — but not after the Benz patent-motorwagen — such as the Bollée L'Obéissante were able to travel large distances in a short timespan, faster than that of the Benz automobile’s measly 10 mph (16 km/h). The L'Obéissante alone could reach speeds up to 19 mph (31 km/h),^[2] carrying 12 passengers at a cruising speed of 15 km/h (9.3 mph).^[3] This is just one example, I am sure there were many other practical, steam-powered automobiles produced prior to the Benz Patent-Motorwagen.

Why am I telling you this? Well, if these automobiles weren’t practical or efficient, how were they able to reach such feats that the Benz Patent-Motorwagen could not?

Relating to your point about mass production, one could argue that the most complicated and expensive parts that make up an automobile could not be mass-produced until the development of suitable machinery and the mass-adoption of the steam-powered train.

Regards, Mugtheboss (talk) 09:47, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have different views on what defines a cars' practicality. For example, the German patent website refers to Benz's car as "the first modern one" (so they indicate there were precursors), but also as the "first practical" automobile. There are multiple reasons why virtually all modern cars are gasoline-powered or electric or somewhere in between (hydrogen-powered cars are also on their way), and not steam-powered. E.g. modern cars have internal combustion engines, not external (like a steam engine). Not to mention a person who drove a steam-powered vehicle had to wait for the engine to heat up and to take into account its explosion danger. The wait for development of suitable machinery is thus not a reason for the argument of mass production. Cheers, Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 15:21, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm… It seems that the consensus we actually require is that of the definition of “practical”, as that defines what the “first practical automobile” is, and since we have differing ideas of what “practical” means, we either require a third party, or we must consult previous consensus on the definition of “practical”. If there is anybody willing to offer a third opinion, it would be greatly appreciated. — Mugtheboss (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Try reading the Wikipedia definition of practicality, maybe? A diehard editor (talk | edits) 17:48, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That page redirects to the page for the philosophical idea of pragmatism, which doesn’t contain a definition of “practicality”, but states that ideas should be assessed on their practical application. The next best page, logical possibility states in its lead that “the logical possibility of a proposition will depend upon the system of logic being considered”, which is exactly why a third opinion on this matter is needed, with the proposition in this case being the consensus of the definition of “practical” and — by proxy — the definition of “first practical automobile”. — Mugtheboss (talk) 19:07, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You may like to look at Wikipedia's own page for Steam Cars. It does suggest they were in use way before internal combustion engine automobiles. They were also in use for some time. In the early 1900's they were even used for racing.

And whilst they were awkward, so were early gasoline cars. 88.87.126.220 (talk) 17:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See the discussion at Talk:Car. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 18:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hear, hear! — Mugtheboss (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comic reference to this page

Least I could do 07/26/23. Hobit (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ C. St. C. B. Davison (1953). History of Steam Road Vehicles Mainly for Passenger-transport. Science Museum (Great Britain). p. 5.
^ Muscat, Cathy (2002). Museums and Galleries of Paris. Insight. p. 186.
^ Ronald M. Dell, P. Moseley, D. Rand (2014). Towards Sustainable Road Transport. p. 13.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

3D scan under CC-BY-SA

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/erster-dreirad-motorwagen-von-carl-benz-47df0cb894a34d33a09361f3cb182070

[1] C. St. C. B. Davison (1953). History of Steam Road Vehicles Mainly for Passenger-transport. Science Museum (Great Britain). p. 5.

[2] Muscat, Cathy (2002). Museums and Galleries of Paris. Insight. p. 186.

[3] Ronald M. Dell, P. Moseley, D. Rand (2014). Towards Sustainable Road Transport. p. 13.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

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