Talk:Battle of Zlatitsa

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Result of the battle

I know that János Hunyadi defeted the Ottoman forces several times prior to the battle of Varna in 1444. This particular battle may be one of them. However the source of the article (Brittanica) doesn't say so. What it says in relation to Peace of Szeged is the following : "Although Murad finally defeated Hunyadi at the Battle of Zlatica (İzladi) in 1443,... " So according to the source, the Ottoman side was the victorious side and not the defeated side. The source should be reviewed and the article should be rewritten accordingly. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll get onto it soon. Uhlan ^talk 20:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be different views on the battle entirely, and the sources I used conflict eachother greatly. See: [1] [2] and also the Britannica reference. Uhlan ^talk 20:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicts ? That's what I've seen in my sources too. In this case we can omit the second sentence about the defeat. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 01:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Uhlan ^talk 01:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to The Metamorphosis of War, ed. Avery Plaw, in the Chapter: The Changing Ottoman Perception of War:From the Foundation of the Empire to its Disintegration, by Mustafa Serdar Palabiyik,[3] "...the defeat of the Ottoman army by Serbian-Hungarian troops in the Battle of Zlatica in 1443".

We should use secondary sources whenever possible. I would not use Britannica unless no other secondary sources are available. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, did not see the link above for Plaw's book.

T.C.F. Hopkins does not appear to be a historian. However, Europe and the Islamic World: A History, by John Victor Tolan, Gilles Veinstein, Henry Laurens, states the Ottoman army was able to stop them at Zlatica.[4] --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another source stating that the Ottomans stopped them at Zlatica(Cambridge University).[5]

We may need to represent all views. --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add it, thanks. Uhlan ^talk 05:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The historians never agreed on the outcome of some battles. This is one of them. My main source is Nicolae Iorga and according to Iorga, the crusades saw that it was impossible to force the mountain passes during the winter and Hunyadi decided to retreat. From Iorga and the other sources I comprehend that the Ottomans couldn't defeat Hunyadi. But the harsh winter conditions defeated him Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Best thing to do is to mention there is debate amongst historians. Uhlan ^talk 21:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Iron Gate

Hi Cannotpick,

You know there are many different historian opinions especially for medieval things. Regarding the battle of Hunyadi vs Sehabeddin even I found 3 possible places by historians. But all of them say the Ottoman army was much bigger than the army of Hunyadi. 1: at the Iron Gate in Transylvania, 2: Ialomita river 3: lower Danube. For example Jefferson say lower Danube (and show a map) But Palosfalvi says the battles of Hunyadi was confused, he say Mezid bay vs Hunyadi battle (16,000 Ottomans) was at the Iron Gate and not at Szeben and Hunyadi vs Sehabeddin was at the Ialomita river and not at the Iron Gate.

That is true the old sources gave a big number, Barthelmy de Jennes says 180,000, Bonfini says 80,000. On April 17, 1443 and in two similar documents received by Hunyadi from king Ladislaus on January 30, 1453 says 80,000 people are.

I know Wawrin says: "The defeat enraged the "Great Turk" and led him to send a huge army of 180,000 Rumelian and Anatolian warriors to occupy Wallachia once and for all. The inhabitants of this country again called the Hungarians and the Poles to their aid, and meeting somewhere in the mountains they inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Turks, leaving 70,000 Ottoman warriors on the battlefield in their camp. and beasts of burden are captured"

Mureșan. C. 2021. John Hunyadi, defender of Christiendom, it says 80,000

Jozsef Banlaky, The Military History of the Hungarian Nation - The Triumph of the Iron Gate [6] (use google translate)

Sehabeddin with the Rumelia army, which was joined by selected troops from 6 Anatolian districts, whose number is unanimously put by the writers at 80,000

The defeat enraged the "Great Turk" and led him to send a huge army of 180,000 Rumelian and Anatolian warriors to occupy Wallachia once and for all. The inhabitants of this country again called the Hungarians and the Poles to their aid, and meeting somewhere in the mountains they inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Turks, leaving 70,000 Ottoman warriors on the battlefield in their camp. and beasts of burden are captured

Jefferson, John (2012). The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad: The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438–1444

Jefferson emphasize many times the Ottoman army was much bigger than the army of Hunyadi, probably Jefferson mention what was in the Hungarian sources.

He merely gives the number of sanjaks in Rumelia (18) and Anatolia (20), and writes that the cavalrymen provided by these sanjaks, along with the serahors, attained the rather incredible number of 70,000 cavalrymen.

By virtue of his positions as the Beylerbey of Rumelia and Ottoman vezir Şehabeddin was able to command far greater military resources than Mezid Bey . Aside from the akinji , who numbered well over 10,000 cavalrymen, he gathered a total of sixteen sanjak beys, a little over half the available Ottoman force of provincial cavalry. He also brought along between two and four thousand janissaries.174 The janissaries, who could not be sent out as raiders, were intended along with the provincial cavalry to protect his camp and guard him from a fate similar to that of Mezid Bey. The size of this force and the priority given to this raid is even more apparent when one considers that the Ottomans, along with Demetrios Palaeologus, were still besieging Constantinople in the summer of 1442 as well as raiding in Western Hungary . This large army took several months to gather,175 and Şehabeddin was unable to set out until the end of summer.

In late August or early September 1442, an Ottoman emissary arrived at the court to discuss the possibility of a treaty with the king. He no doubt mentioned that Şeha beddin had gathered a grand army, and was on the march prepared to fully avenge Mezid Bey ’s earlier defeat.

Şehabeddin, as the Ottoman sources tell us, became overconfĳident just as Mezid Bey had and was unaware of the sizeand proximity of the Hungarian army pursuing him.

Some Ottoman sources state all sixteen sanjak beys were killed, equalling the loss of around half of the sanjak beys in the empire. The morning sun revealed a fĳield strewn with Ottoman dead.185 Yet as several sources state, as many died in the waters of the Danube as on the fĳield of battle. The plunder seized was enormous. In his haste to retreat Şehabeddin had left the majority of his camp possessions, to include “5,000 camels and innumerable horses.

Hunyadi ’s defeat against ehabeddin and a large portion of the Ottoman army constituted this talented general’s greatest battlefĳield victory, second only to the 1456 defense of Belgrade in terms of his greatest military accomplishment.

The successes of Hunyadi in 1442 were celebrated throughout Europe, in particular his victory over Şehabeddin in September. This was the fĳirst time in living memory that a European army had defeated such a large Ottoman force, composed not only of raiders, but of the provincial cavalry led by their own sanjak beys and accompanied by the formidable janissaries.

Pálosfalvi, Tamás (2018). From Nicopolis to Mohács: A History of Ottoman-Hungarian Warfare, 1389–1526.

The punitive campaign, launched in retaliation for Mezid’s rout, was commanded by the beylerbey of Rumelia, Şehabeddin Pasha. Although he was able to muster regular troops and even janissaries alongside the irregular cavalry – probably a necessary measure after the losses suffered by Mezid’s army six months before – the enormous figures given by contemporary charters, and adopted by later chroniclers, certainly belong to the realm of fantasy

However it happened, the victory over Şehabeddin’s army was hugely important as the first Hungarian success against an Ottoman army with a sizeable number of regular troops. Together with the defeat of Mezid Bey, it won international fame for Hunyadi and shook the ever-increasing belief in the Ottomans invincibility OrionNimrod (talk) 18:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]