Talk:Barbecue in Texas

South Texas

Not referring to restaurant fare, but actual barbecues by non-restauranteurs: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mydogtrouble (talk • contribs) 14:09, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

While head of beef is common, it is not the entire concept of South Texas barbecue. My own experience has been of several common centerpieces of the barbecue: brisket and fajitas being most common, venison or other four-footed game (rarely but occasionally javelina) is quite common, sausage less common than the beef preparations but regularly seen, chicken not at all, at least in festive settings, which almost every barbecue is seen as. No dry rubs seem to be used.

Sauces are basting preparations, not heavily laden with sugar or molasses, and tomato ketchup or paste is not used, nor commercial red sauces. Vinegar and/or lemon juice, red pepper, salt, black pepper, sometimes margarine, form the backbone of most basting sauces, with various lesser ingredients such as mustard, worcestershire sauces, etc., being added to various recipes. Mesquite wood is extremely common as cooking and smoking wood. Fully enclosed smokers are not often used, slow grilling over somewhat smoky coals is the normal method.

All this is usually served with a choice of flour tortillas, white bread, pickles (cucumber pickles) pickled jalapeños, pico de gallo, and mildly seasoned pinto beans. As this is original research, needs citation from elsewhere.

Mydogtrouble (talk) 13:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

In terms of predominance in Texas (and at the risk of offending NOTFORUM), I would argue that Central Texas style (smoked over indirect heat) is by far the most commonly found style and barbacoa being the least common. I believe that East Texas (aka U.S. Southern) style (smoked, chopped, sauced) in its true form is almost as uncommon and perhaps equally uncommon, except perhaps in parts of East Texas, as barbacoa. (I make the true form comment because there is a difference between the true form of East Texas BBQ and the chopped brisket which is ubiquitous throughout the state, which ordinarily is not sauced after cooking.) West Texas style (smoked over direct heat) falls somewhere between East and Central in predominance, but is a quantum level less common than Central Texas style and is rare outside the Texas Hill Country. To finally get to my point, I believe that West Texas style and barbacoa are not given sufficient weight or consideration here. At the end of the day, Central Texas style is by far the most common style and found throughout Texas with the other three styles being essentially regional styles within Texas (though significant outliers of all exist), with barbacoa being most commonly found in South Texas, West Texas style in the Hill Country, and East Texas style in ... well ... East Texas. Further, I'd argue that when most folks think of "Texas BBQ" they're thinking of Central Texas style and West Texas style (which to anyone who's not a BBQ aficionado are very similar in taste and appearance), not East Texas style or barbacoa. Maybe one of these days, I'll find some sources and do some revisions here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:31, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's almost two years later and I haven't done the research yet, except that I've become more convinced that East Texas style is slowly being driven out of East Texas by Central Texas style, though I'm having trouble finding documentation for that which wouldn't be OR. I've also learned (from this later Texas Monthly article) that true West Texas style, also called cowboy style, doesn't much exist. True cowboy style is, essentially, what's done on your backyard grill: meats cooked by direct heat close to the coals. What the article identifies as West Texas style, typified by Cooper's, would probably be better called (again OR) "Llano style." It's called "old-style" in Llano referring back to its origins in cowboy style, but it's cooked in a slightly–smoky enclosed pit a couple of feet away from the coals, rather than inches away, which still provides a tender slow cook as in Central Texas style and a degree of smokiness between that of grilled meat and Central Texas style; the style also has a unique, thin vinegary optional sauce. Due to the success of the style in Llano, the style is slowly moving out of Llano (which is about the only place you could get it for a long time except for a few surrounding cities) to Texas at large. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

From what I can see, the pulled pork sandwich of Eastern Texas style is southern style and not unique or a true style of Texas at all. If they are mixing in beef or serving as all-beef but cooked like southern style then I'd say that is unique enough to be its own style. I am just speaking of the pork-only version and recognize the beef version as a Eastern Texas style. I've done some interesting reading at Google books today on Texas barbecue and its history but my taste buds won't be as qualified as other editors here.

The only Texas style brisket that I have ever eaten was barbecued in this smoker and it was absolutely delicious but I couldn't tell you which style that it was nor the wood used. Dennis Brown was the smoke master and better qualified at answering that question as well as better qualified than I to work on this article. I suspect that DoRD's knowledge and taste buds qualify him likewise. There is no dispute here but instead you have both been pinged because I have checked the article history and not seeing either of your names, I believe this is an article you may enjoy editing.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I know very little (read "nothing") about East Texas BBQ, and have rarely encountered pulled pork in Texas. Barbacoa is, in my experience, mostly limited to Mexican (not Tex-Mex) restaurants and carnicerias. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:39, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

BH, I live in North Central Texas and the availability of East Texas Style Q drops off exponentially (and I don't mean that as an exaggeration) as you move west from the west edge of the Piney Woods. And you're not the first person I've read to say that it's indistinguishable from Southern style. By the time you get to Dallas it's rare and by Fort Worth it's (almost) nonexistent. I agree with DoRD about the availability of barbacoa. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

East Texas Barbecue

@Berean Hunter:

Re: the edit removing material about East Texas Barbecue from the 1973 article

While it's important to keep research up-to-date, I have a few points:

• 1. Would it be alright if you specified the sources? Of course they have to pertain exactly to East Texas (or else it can come off as an Original Research justification of removing sourced content)
• 2. The net result of the edit was that the content was simply removed, instead of new content with a new source being added, which IMO detracts from the article.
• 3. Historiography is an important thing to keep track of, so if space permits, it's best to say "In 1973 X said Y, and in 2016 A said B..."

Also Re: "poorer cut of meat = longer cooking and not less flavor"

• Source text says: "The heavily-sauced, chopped East Texas barbecue is a reflection of the fact that it was originally a Negro phenomenon, an ingenious method for rendering palatable the poorer, less-desirable cuts of meat which often were the only ones available to the poor black." and "(Culinary experts tell us that we owe the finest continental sauces, like bearnaise, to a similar problem of semi-spoiled meat in Bourbon France)." - The second sentence may give context.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

WhisperToMe, I'll try to take a closer look tomorrow. About to turn in for the evening.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:34, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

That'll be fine! It's morning time for me :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

WhisperToMe,

The preceding sentence gives better context. "In any event, one plausible theory which has been offered to explain the difference between the two goes something like this:" Please note that it isn't Smith's theory ("has been offered" by whom?) and he is presumably paraphrasing someone else. Loose hearsay or myth? That fringe theory by no one particular hasn't been supported by good, modern sources and best left out.

From the article, "East Texas style: The meat is slowly cooked to the point that it is "falling off the bone." It is typically cooked over hickory wood and marinated in a sweet, tomato-based sauce." and is cited to Fodors. It contrasts sharply with Smith's dissenting opinion that I left in the article to represent his POV (due weight), "Smith further described East Texas barbecue as "still basically a sandwich product heavy on hot sauce." So, is it "sweet, tomato-based sauce" or hot sauce that defines the style? Does he purport that hot sauce was defining for both pork and beef barbecue? Unclear.

The flavor of either would not be inferior such as to require sauce to cover it. With pork barbecue, it is traditionally a vinegar-based sauce that helps disguise the sinew, gristle, fat, etc. of "whole hog" barbecue which is Eastern Carolina style. It isn't the meat that needs disguising. Piedmont style (aka Lexington style) uses the pork shoulder and there is very little sauce used because it is a good-flavored meat that doesn't need disguising. To be clear, when it comes to pork barbecue, that wasn't developed in Texas and is an extension of Carolina styles (Smith refers to this as Southern, "It is actually an extension of Southern barbecue") I haven't seen citations that either the pork shoulder or ribs have some kind of inferior flavor. I'm discussing those particular cuts because of the assertion that I removed and if true, it would mean that pork barbecue in East Texas is closer to Piedmont style and not whole hog so sauce would not be an imperative. Of course, the composition seems to be changing - "Most of the pulled-pork dishes you find on Texas barbecue menus — they are almost always pulled and shredded rather than chopped — are made from pork shoulder, though whole-hog barbecue has become more prominent in the past few years." 1

Smith seems to confuse cheaper cuts of meat with having off flavors or inferior flavors. Elie conflicts with Smith's anonymous theory because he identifies that it was beef which was simply cheaper due to availability with no mention that it was headed towards off flavors or had an inferior flavor at all. Ribs have been traditionally cheaper because of the bone-to-meat ratio that factored into the price, and the fact that you must cook them low and slow to make tender so it takes longer which makes them less-preferred. Do beef ribs have a lesser flavor than other cuts of beef? Making palatable is a function of low and slow for tenderness and rendering the fat out. Fast cooking pork ribs makes the collagen stiffen, leaves the fat in and makes the meat tough. The fringe theory's conclusion, "Thus, hot sauce was emphasized in the cuisine, as it covered the flavor of poorer cuts of meat" is faulty.

When I wrote "I've done some interesting reading at Google books today on Texas barbecue and its history" in the section above, I had read multiple sources that didn't back Smith up. It has been two years so I don't remember which ones. As for "According to Smith, the "finest manifestations" of the East Texas style are found in African-American-operated restaurants." Is this still true? It has been almost 50 years and seems outdated but if true then modern sources should also support it and would be preferred. Otherwise, it needs a caveat to show how dated his opinion is, i.e. According to Smith writing in 1973,...
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:49, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

TBH I'm fine adding the year; I personally prefer dating information when possible. There are circumstances when I add the year to stuff so people know that it may/will get dated.

Determining whether something is fringe is based on the sum of published sources talking about the topic, so when judging info I like to gather up as many sources as possible and even quote from them so people can see for themselves who says what.

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

BTW the "Elie" article actually written by Robb Walsh himself https://books.google.com/books?id=aq_qCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q&f=false // Elie is the editor of the whole publication. Anyhow Walsh recorded the words of a white Texan, Bill Bridges, who told him that sausage links and "stranger parts of the animals" made up African-American barbecue https://books.google.com/books?id=aq_qCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA58 . WhisperToMe (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC)