Talk:Bajan Creole

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'Speaking bare Bajan'

(For others: you'll just get to see a little sample of someone 'speaking bare Bajan' as the old folks used to say.... Question: Dis is for ah next Bajan- I cyah t'ink of dis one word... Iz- de word when someone is crossed or like upset and they're pouting wid dey 'mout up in de air'.... Bajans have a word for it, but ah only able to t'ink of de Trini word... Which I think is "Turn-up yuh face", or "Screw-face" but, ah trying to think back and I think de Trini word had a predecessor too. Iz tough sometime to remember some of dese old words nowadays yea, since soo much of de new words comin' into de Barbados lingo from down Trinidad, Jamaica or Guyana. CaribDigita 04:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ANNSA: I tink it is wen somebody does be 'cruel' but i ain too sure bossman. safe?

I think I remember it.... It is an old Caribbean- french-creole so I don't know exactly how it is spelled only how it is said. It is prounced (I think) something like "Mooyae mouth" or "moo-yea mouth"... Basically you could say "them people standing up with their bunch of mooyae mout" or something to that effect and it basically means that the people(or persons) look pissed off. CaribDigita 23:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment

A request for comment was added for this article, regarding the disputed inclusion of the extensive list of vocabulary.

Bajan - this article contains an exhaustingly long list of Barbados slang. The presence of the list in the article is contested for being a clear violation of Wp:not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary. Furthermore, the list keeps growing ad nauseam with a vast array of sexual slang/neologisms. Since the list removal has been reverted twice by two different users, objector kindly requests comments on this issue.

Please comment below. Thank you.--Hús ö nd 00:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is no different in this and some of other languages on Wikipedia, in terms of going indepth to explain both the parts and usage of speech. Example: Latin - List of Latin phrases (A–E), French - List of French phrases, etc.

So what's the problem? Bajan is not actually a whole other language, but the usage and sentence structure are somewhat varied and continue to evolve due to the multi-cultural influences like Hindi which continue to add terms like "Tabanca", etc. In the last 3-4 years. This article tells a person for example if they were to goto Barbados exactly what are hearing and how they too could speak or understand the same dialect which may seem- like a slang of English because it isn't a whole language. I guess there's a Wikipedia bias towards only going indepth with Romance languages instead? CaribDigita 02:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not try to establish a comparison between Bajan slang and those Latin and French expressions (many of which are used in English). As it currently is, this article is an endless list of unencyclopedic slang, an indiscriminate collection of information really. There's websites providing Bajan slang for anyone who'd like to learn it extensively, but this article is just not the place for it. A handful of good examples of Bajan would suffice.--Hús ö nd 04:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bajan is an English Creole, not a "slang". It isn't acceptable to resort to dismissive and derogatory terminology while discussing article content. It's unreasonable to expect people to listen to you while you insult them. Guettarda 06:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did I say that Bajan IS slang? I am perfectly aware that Bajan is a creole, but the vocabulary contained in this article is riddled with low level Bajan slang. Did you even bother to check out the entries before assuming that I'm some kind of troll trying to chop off a quaint, harmless list of words? Don't interpret my positions with such levity please.--Hús ö nd 16:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The list of words here is clearly beyond the scope of an encyclopedia. If these term can be reasonably attested, they should be added to the wiktionaries. Building up a huge and fairly arbitrary list of colloquial expressions doesn't really help the article. It just makes it harder to verify. All that's needed are a few good examples.

And in case you're wondering, I treat non-creoles the same way; no lists of tourist phrases are appropriate in any of our language FAs, for example.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly what I think about this list.--Hús ö nd 15:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not much can be "verified" easily for the "Wikipedia community" because not much has previously recorded / documented about Bajan. Barbadians have been coming to this page once in a while and have been verifying for each other. I personally have had several things I posted modified as well. So far- this list is the most upto date article on Barbadian speech online (that I've seen). Some (so called) "travel guides" have tried to put together (small) lists on how to speak Bajan but many either say the word wrong, misspell the words, or use it in the wrong context. Bajan also remains dynamic language that changes from year to year because the language overall was partly devised as a lingustic code- for people in Barbados to be able to speak and have the plantation owners not know what was being said. Also for the record- that's incorrect, these aren't "tourist phrases", these are the actual ways to speak Bajan. CaribDigita 17:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that adds even more reasons for the list to go, as per WP:V and WP:NEO.--Hús ö nd 18:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Carib, the point is not whether it's intended for native speakers or not, but that it's a completely arbitrary list of phrases and words. If you want to write a how-to guide for Bajan, then you're best off doing so in the form of a WikiBook. If you want to explain the individual words, start working on Wiktionary articles. We have sister projects for a reason. And complaining about WP:V isn't really that constructive. How else do you expect a wiki to be taken at least somewhat seriously as a reasonably reliable encyclopedia?

We're not saying that the info useless or that these words aren't used in Bajan, but we are saying that this article isn't the place for it. Articles aren't supposed to be general storage of from enthusiasts. And do keep in mind that Wikipedia isn't the sole repository of knowledge on the internet.

The list should be condensed to a few useful examples and transwikied. I recommend moving it to the talkpage while sorting this out. Its current length and format is very inappropraite for a language artice.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to finish this debate would others be ok with....

I have a suggestion. I'm personally am leaving (opting out) of this discussion, I'm more focused on using my energy to do other things.

Just to be over with, I suggest that perhaps this information be transfered to-

http://www.allinfoaboutbarbados.com/

Would there be any objection from anyone about the move of this content to there instead? Or another alternative? CaribDigita 18:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No objections at all. In fact, I don't mind if some verifiable vocabulary is kept, as long as all the vulgar colloquialisms go.--Hús ö nd 18:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're kinda forgetting that we have sister projects. See post above.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Bajans there's a wikipedia Bias on Caribbean articles.

The Bias is there, so you just come to learn to accept it, and live with it. It has been decided that you shouldn't add Bajan dialect words to wikipedia even though you can find dialect lists elsewhere in other language article. So small hint- don't waste your time re-recreating a dialect list here. Just a word of advice because if you recreate the dialect list here it will be deleted. CaribDigita 13:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I noticed and that's why I de-linked Wikipedia from all of work and suggested everyone do the same. If this was a white country this would be handled a LOT differently on Wikipedia. This minstrelization of the language is disgrace and speaks more to the inbred trash controlling wikipedia entries rather than anything factual about Bajan creole. It was discussed at the linguists conference and we are writing a public letter to Wikipedia. Doubt they'll do anything about it, but others will see what they are really about. Disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 (talk) 17:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've called this SIL company to find out how they classify "Creole languages"

They told me to contact a member of their company in Hawaii. According to them they classified "Bajan" a long time ago and the lady is "pretty passionate" about people in foreign places being un-represented linguistically. CaribDigita (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion between Creole languages and English dialects

Please, try to read a bit more about what a Creole language is and what a dialect of a language is. There are some Creole languages that are called “dialect” by its speakers (Bajan, Bahamian, Forro), but they are not classified as dialects of the respective lexifier language. Ten Islands (talk) 20:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing I've been to Barbados. For another I can speak Bajan. British people that goto Barbados usually pick it up in a day. Many of the credible guides on speaking "Bajan" say it is a dialect. This link here covers the majority of the semantics of speaking it. SIL appears to be wrong they have an agenda of over classifying what they study based on what they're telling me over the phone and that is why all the other sources point out that Bajan is just a Dialect. I suggest you tune into the Voice of Barbados to hear how Bajan is really spoken. www.vob929.com (Audio link here). CaribDigita (talk) 04:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No person that goes to Barbados picks up the dialect in a day. Don't flatter yourself, you were probably being made fun of. Rightfully so, if you think you could pick up a language in a day. How British of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 (talk) 17:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know of a source that talks about how Music influences the Bajan dialect?

Does anyone know of any sourced material that talks about how music influences how Bajan has transformed over time?

Two music songs that quickly come to mind- which may have influenced the lingo. The Calypso song with the line"wax-palax, bruggadown-brax" (Seen here. And the cricket song "Archie". Which has the line "Archie brek dem up". In the case of the Archie song, in Bajan dialect you can now call someone that destroys things an "Archie Brek 'em up". CaribDigita (talk)

African words in Bajan - wouldn't that be the more archaic Barbadian English instead?

Wouldn't "African words in Bajan" actually fall more under the more archaic Barbadian English language instead? Barbadian English has a far more African dynamic than today's Bajan Dialect. I think Barbadian English language appears to fall more under the time of the Bussa slave revolt.

An article with Barbadian English [1] CaribDigita (talk) 10:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poll: "Gwan". Jamaican or Bajan?

Okay this I think will be Interesting. Gwan - (or "goin' on"). Do others here think this word is Bajan? I would say it is Jamaican. E.g. I don't think there any songs by RPB, Mac Fingal, Gabby, etc. I'm trying to think of even one where Alison Hinds, T.C., Bumba etc. Have used this term and can't come up with any. Have any of these or other prominent artists used this ever? So, I'm proposing a lil' poll to find a consensus on "gwan". CaribDigita (talk) 02:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explaining reverts

I've reverted a few edits now which I believe to have been made in good faith? However they are questionable if it is Bajan. Today, some words have come into familiar usage in Barbados however they are truly of another culture. "Gwan" (Go on), "Fi" (For), "Me na" (Me not/I don't), etc. These specific words are not truly Bajan. Certain Bajan authors over the years have helped to standardised the Bajan dialect. People like Austin Clarke, Kamau Brathwaite, Frank Collymore, Warren Alleyne, etc. "Fi" doesn't really have a history in Barbados based on what I've read over the years. The usual word you'll see is "fuh" such as in the Bajan folksong said by all of the newly emancipated slaves across Barbados in the early 1800s...

"Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin (Queen Victoria). De Queen come from England to set we free Now Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin".[2]

Also in the Bajan poem by Bruce St. John which compares Bajan to Barbadian cooking lingo...

" We' language limit? Who language en limit? Evah language Like a big pot o' Bajan soup: Pice o' yam, piece o' potato, T'ree dumplin', two eddoe, One beet, two carrot, Piece o' pig-tail, piece o' beef Pinch o' salt, dus' o' pepper, An' doan' fuget okra To add to de flavour. Boil up, cook up, eat up An' yuh still wan' rice?"[3]

Gwan. Never really had a history in Barbados. It is close to the Bajan word "wan" (as in "want") Example: "I wan' some of dah."(I want some of that.) Now if you listen to Reggae (Esp. from Jamaica) you'll hear "Gwan" a lot but, it doesn't really have a history in Barbados or Bajan. It is primarily a fairly recent subculture. E.g. a recent article in the Barbados newspaper about the Rastafari movement asking for more acceptance in Barbados.

African Crossroads - Conscience of a nation

CaribDigita (talk) 02:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article

This article seems to be written in a "popular" tone that is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Wikipedia articles on language varieties, languages, dialects, etc. should cite academic and scholarly sources and should not be based on "popular opinion" or "popular knowledge". The classification of a speech variety as a creole language, by the way, has nothing to do with how easily it can be understood by a speaker of the lexifier language (in this case, English), but rather with the origin of the language. In this regard, Bajan is undeniably a creole language. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent move

Why was Bajan moved to Barbadian English? (I do understand why it was moved at all.) Creole languages aren't generally considered dialects of English, which is waht the current title implies. Compare Jamaican Patois and Jamaican English, which are two separate articels about two separate things. I'm assuming this is also the case with Bajan creole and Barbadian English. - BilCat (talk) 10:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. I had moved it to the disambiguation page since "Bajan" is the more common form for the noun (people) and adjective (of, or from Barbados). This disambiguation page also contains the local Barbadian accent though. It is but one of many words that use "Bajan". CaribDigita (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC) As in Bajan stick licking (form of martial-arts), Bajan Pride (the national football team), or even Bajan pepper sauce (name says it all).[reply]

Many books and sources also refer to "Bajan" as interchangeable with "Barbadian". Of interest many sources do refer to the Bajan accent as both a dialect or Creole language. P.S. "Dialect" is "a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group".(OED) So it is that as well. CaribDigita (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I understand why you wanted to move the page, and I don't disagree with that. But as the user in the last post said, "Bajan is undeniably a creole language." Looking at the information on the page, "Bajan language" bears a very close resemblance to Jamaican Patois, but not so much to English. So to call it "xxx English" is misleading, in my opinion. But as the user also said, "Wikipedia articles on language varieties, languages, dialects, etc. should cite academic and scholarly sources and should not be based on "popular opinion" or "popular knowledge". The final arbiter is what the relaible sources say. - BilCat (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was there a WP naming convention for this? Caribbean English as an article was named just as simply. Should it be under "Bajan language" instead? CaribDigita (talk) 23:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From the Caribbean English article's Lead: "Caribbean English is a broad term for the dialects of the English language spoken in the Caribbean, most countries on the Caribbean coast of Central America, and Guyana. Caribbean English is influenced by the English-based Creole varieties spoken in the region, but they are not the same."

I get the impression you have always thought of an English variant/dialect and an English-based Creole language as the same thing. That's not meant as a critisism, just trying to understand you view here, and quantify it. Many creole Patois speakers can also speak what would pass as standard English in most major English speaking countries (UK, US, Canada, Australia, etc.), but they would still speak with local characteristics, for the most part. That's the local dialect/variant of English. But if they speak "yard talk" (a term Jamaicans often use for Patois) to another creole/patois speaker from their country, most other English speakers would not have a clue what they were saying, though they would probably understand a varying degree of words, depending on the person. This issue is made more confusing by the fact that many people, past and present, have treated Caribbean creole languanges as simply "broken English" or a dialect. But according to most reliable sources on the subject, there is a great difference, and now many English-based creoles/patois are beginning to gain recognition as full languages, as Haitian Creole has had for some time. Anyway, that's why I object to classifying the English-based creole language spoken in Barbados, whaterver name it may go by, as an "English" spoken in Barbados. It's not to diminish the language by separating it from English, but to elevate it to its proper pllce as a separate language from English, though a related one.

As to the name, if "Bajan" is the most common term for the language, then either Bajan (language) or Bajan language would work. I'd prefer the former, as it is a disambiguated title, shouwing that the usual term is "Bajan". However, I would not object to either title being used. However, we have to chose one, then ask an admin to move the page if the preferred title is the second choice, as previous edits to those page prevent me or you from moving them there. Other choices would be Barbadian (languange), Barbadian languange, or perhaps even Barbadian Creole languange, depending on common usage and reliable sources. - BilCat (talk) 06:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Simple enough - if you have some reliable sources that discuss this, let's take a look at them. Guettarda (talk) 05:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But according to most reliable sources on the subject, there is a great difference, and now many English-based creoles/patois are beginning to gain recognition as full languages - I would definitely like to see these sources, especially as applied to Bajan English and West Indian creole Englishes as a whole. Haitian kweyol is, of course, a much more distinctive case. In addition, "beginning to gain recognition" isn't good enough - to rename articles, it would need to have gained some amount of consensus. Guettarda (talk) 06:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As to reliable sources, the articles on Caribbean English, English-based Creole varieties, Jamaican Patois, Jamaican English, and others exist,a nd support my claims. Though not reliable sources in and of themselves, they do have reliable sources listed in those articles. While what I have written is not taken from a single reliable source, it is based on those aticles, the TV series and book The Story of English, the series The Adventure of English, other books and print encyclopedias over the years, and personal experience with Jamaicans to a large extent (including Primary education), and some other Anglophone Caribbeanpeople. One online site that appear to be reliabel is the Society for Caribbean Linguistics, especially this very long page. I'll keep looking for other online sources to point you to, especially those specifically about the Bajan language. There are many "scholarly" and presumably reliable print sources listed in this article, but few are referenced directly, and I don't have access to those books at the movment. Perhaps someone else does, and can check those sources. - BilCat (talk) 06:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your logic. But one of the things you've stated was,

"Bajan language" bears a very close resemblance to Jamaican Patois, but not so much to English. So to call it "xxx English" is misleading, in my opinion.".

Although Bajan appears to have been seen as 'pidgin-ized' (if I can so affix that suffix) I don't know if I'd categorize it as having "not so much in common with English." Most spellings in Bajan are merely an attempt to quantify the actual pronunciation of the accent. Bajan is by appearance also based strongly on English from the Elizabethan era which was rather replete with the usage of double negatives and such. And as with any dialect things can be worded and said many ways. Some of the examples I've used I'd say are the most extreme examples. For instance, a person can say "Ah could-can't get um open", or just as well say, "I can't get it opened", "I can't get um do", or a whole set of other personal options. Could-can't is a slightly more modern variant I believe of "must be can" and "must be could". But I put the most extreme example so as to show how complex that statement can get in Bajan. But that is not a guarantee of the actual depth that is taken by a person. CaribDigita (talk) 14:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The original name of the article, or at least the name it's been at for a long time, was Bajan; it was only moved to Barbadian English on July 3, 2010. This aricle state in the first line that "Bajan is an English-based creole language, and the statement is referrenced to an apparently-reliable source. Nowhere in the articleis the claim made tht "Bajan" is also called "Barbadian English", nor does it assert that the Bajan laguage presented here is merely a dialect or variant of English, as the current title implies. As such, the burden of proof for the article's current title should be on the person whho moved it, not on me. - BilCat (talk) 08:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP: articles generally can't be used as references. Sources have stated Bajan is indeed a dialect. Frank A. Collymore[4] a Barbadian linguist comes quickly to mind. Many intricacies of Bajan appear to have died out and have evolved to become more of a Barbadian English today. A notable example he has can be:
"cold" -(Quote) "The Barbadian applies(ied) the term cold to a large variety of unrelated diseases. Diarrhoea and dysenteric disorders are a cold in the bowels; cystitis, a cold in the bladder; headache, a cold in the head; lumbago and back pain, a cold in the back. Almost any disease can(could) thus be(have been) classified as a cold, whilst the common or garden cold or coryza, is dignified by the term fresh cold". [Iris Bailey: The Bush Teas of Barbados, (The Journal of B.H.M.S., Vol., XVI, No. 3)].
"Science" - (Quote) "Now especially (somewhat jocularity) with reference to pugilism. 1785" (S.O.E.D.), was used locally with particular application to the art of stick-licking, or fencing with sticks, once a very popular sport.

I'll note Barbadians don't use those definitions any longer in Bajan. Other words were brand names that have long gone i.e. Comfort (peppermint sticks), or "Admirals" (biscuits). CaribDigita (talk) 14:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Web pages about buildings generally can't be used as references for linguistic information. The first line of the article, "Bajan is an English-based creole language", is cited directly from a source, not WP or a page about a building. Anyway, you win. You've exhausted my patience with your ability to ignore cited evidence in favor of rap lyrics and building websites. I'm moving on. - BilCat (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't attempting to act obstructionist. I was merely citing the URL above as some idea of whom Frank Collymore is and his level of notability on the subject matter (per the first paragraph). He produced one of the more comprehensive books on Bajan. In his examples almost all references in his book (Notes for a Glossary of Words and Phrases of Barbadian Dialect) cite the Old English from the OED. I was just pointing out that I'm not sure how Bajan could be 'not close to English'. That isn't entirely fully accurate statement. Esp. as Bajan has no more then 20 non-English lexicon parts of speech according to reputable sources. CaribDigita (talk) 23:22, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm coming into this as somewhat of an outsider to the discussion. The situation with Bajan/Barbadian Creole is somewhat complex compared to other Caribbean varieties because it is closer to "Standard English" than Jamaican Creole such that Le Page (in the preface to Isle de France Creole: Affinities and origins, 1982) argues that this must be because there was a higher proportion of whites to blacks in Barbados during its formative years; Ian Hancock, in a review of The Early Stages of Creolization (1995) says it is "wiser to regard Bajan as a 'linguistic system' that includes a creole component in its makeup—but not an extensive one..." Works on this variety (such as the chapter by Linda Fields in ESC) seem to consistently assume that it was historically more creolized in the past.

Sociologically, English and Bajan/Barbadian Creole are considered separate as this book indicates (I know, it's not a linguistics book, but it's still telling about speaker attitudes). Recently, Gerard van Herk (in Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean, 2003) argues (or suggests, I haven't looked at it) that Bajan/Barbadian Creole is comprised of a post-creole speech continuum so that there is no sharp boundary between creole forms and English forms. This contrasts the the traditional view that the creole is separate from the standard like Haitian Creole is (something that the book linked to above may be assuming).

I'm also in favor of having Bajan be the disambiguation with this article being Bajan (language). As far as I've seen, "Bajan" is the more common term but I'm not sure if instances of "Barbadian English" (which are rarer either way) refer to varieties considered English dialects or if such terminology indicates an assumption that other authors don't. I'm not sure what to do with Barbadian English. If we can't establish that it's separate from Standard English as it's spoken in Barbados (that is, the result of second language interference from Bajan speakers attempting to speak Standard English) then we might as well have it redirected to here until further notice. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 04:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would note as well, there are also occasional studies (out of the UK mainly), that have been studying whether Bajan's contacts with English have de-creolized it. (Page 503)[5], (Decreolization > 1 - Creole continuum)[6], (Parg 242)[7] This is part of the reason why this 'dialect' vs. 'not a dialect' debate has gone on for a number of years. Bajan isn't what it once was. Many Bajan terms are now all together obsolete or archaic and thus British Standard English has infiltrated Bajan a lot more. CaribDigita (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A common explanation for decreolization (and speech continua) is extended contact with the lexifier language. Decreolization is a process that is rarely completed, particularly when you consider speaker variation and speech continua. For example, the most acrolectal form of Jamaican Creole is indistinguishable from Standard Jamaican English.

Are you making the case that Bajan is a dialect of English? — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The reference for dialect was included in the article but was removed. The country's Ministry of Tourism currently has "dialect" listed too[8] and there are many sources that talk about Bajan having become decrolized.[9]. Feel free to google it "Bajan decreolized" . Furthermore, parents school officials are debating the merits of Bajan dialect again since by some it isn't correct grammatically.

Nothing wrong with Bajan dialect in the classroom, says Dr. Allsopp, Barbados Advocate - 2/11/2010
Classroom not the place for dialect, Barbados Advocate Newspaper - 3/3/2010

CaribDigita (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. Are you saying there's a reference that refers to Bajan as a dialect of English? Or are you saying something else. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 00:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The move I carried out was due to Bajan having many uses. I started to, however stopped short of creating the disambiguation page due to this dispute. But there are many uses of Bajan including: as a Barbadian person, the National football team (Bajan Pride) and the list goes on. The English dialect thing started thereafter due to an insistence that Bajan is (it is thought) 'just like Jamaican Creole.'

As far as your inquiry of whether there are reference saying Bajan is a dialect of English. Besides:

Schneider, Edgar W. (2004). Varieties of English. p. 503. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |trans_title=, |laysummary=, |trans_chapter=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)
Aceto, Michael; Williams, Jeffrey P. (2003). Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean. John Benjamins Publishing Company. ISSN 0172-7362. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |trans_title=, |laysummary=, |trans_chapter=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)
Harris, Roxy; Rampton, Ben (2003). The language, ethnicity and race reader. Routledge. ISBN 0-415-27601-2. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |trans_title=, |laysummary=, |trans_chapter=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)
Palusci, Oriana (2010). English, but not quite. Locating linguistic diversity. Tangram Edizioni Scientifiche Trento. p. 137. ISBN 978-88-6458-007-4. Roy (1986) underling that the substrate English of Barbados was not necessarily a uniform standard, rather it was made up of different varieties, spoken by those who became indentured servants (Irish, Scotch, Welsh, or British) and had <<few prospects in British society, as well as those who had been convicted of petty offenses or kidnapped into servitude>> (143). The most interesting phenomenon related to the Bajan basilectal variety is that is seems to have vanished in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries: In the map created by Alleyne (1980: 26) decreolized dialects are those of Anguilla, the Bahamas, Barbados, The Caymans, Tobago, Trinidad, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |trans_title=, |laysummary=, |trans_chapter=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)

? Yes. Here's another

Gramley, Stephan; Pätzold, Kurt-Michael (1992). A survey of modern English. Routledge. p. 465. ISBN 0-415-04957-1. Among the more extensively treated creoles of the Caribbean are Jamaican Creole (cf. Le Page and DeCamp 1960; Cassidy 1961; Bailey 1966), Guyanese Creole (Bickerton 1975) and Belizean Creole )Daley 1979), all of which are decreolizing in varying degrees. Some of the anglophone territories in the Caribbean have local basilect forms which have so few creole elements as to be considered more dialects of English than creoles; this is the case with Bajan, as the vernacular of Barbados is called. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |trans_title=, |laysummary=, |trans_chapter=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)

I can display more sources too? I've seen sources are now speaking of a new language in Barbados defined as Euro-Barbadian-English (EBE) (Which are mainly the large number of Europeans from Britain and elsewhere that are moving into Barbados now.) CaribDigita (talk) 23:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to question your judgment on a few of these here.

The first source, Varieties of English says that Bajan is "a member of the Caribbean English Creole (CEC) family." On page 506, it refers to "the Bajan language." I'm assuming that you've referred to this source because it says Bajan has decreolized. As the parts I point to imply, a creole variety can decreolize and still be considered a creole.
I don't have access to Contact Englishes, language, ethnicity and race reader, so I'm not sure what parts convince you the authors refer to Bajan as an English dialect.
The quote you provide from English, but not quite backs up the notion of Bajan as a creole since it refers to basilectal and acrolectal forms. It's very rare for competent linguists to use these terms outside of creolistics and, again, I'm assuming you believe this source backs up the notion of Bajan as a dialect of English because it says Bajan has decreolized.

The final source you provide indicates that the answer as to whether Bajan is a language on its own or a dialect of English is not entirely clear cut, even in linguistic literature (something I suspected). This makes our job a little more difficult. Are there similar cases at Wikipedia?

I don't think anyone (not even BilCat) believes that this page should go back to Bajan, so if you want to create the disambiguation page, you're welcome to. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bajan is similarities to the dialect from Bristol.

Bajan, language or dialect? Creole or not?

Again, as I mentioned above, articles about languages should not be based on popular or otherwise non-scientific judgements, assertions or literature. Unfortunately, people often forget that linguistics is just as much a science, requiring investigation, experimentation, evidence and proof, just like any other science. You cannot simply go onto Big Bang and write "according to Britney Spears, the Big Bang never happened." Even if a politician states that, you can't write it as fact, merely as something they've said. Similarly, the Barbados government website is not a reliable source about the linguistic status of Bajan, it is not a linguist or a linguistic study, it is completely non-scientific. Neither is a page about a building a reliable source. All reliable scientific sources consider Bajan a creole, full stop. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 02:43, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hence why I listed the linguist sources above. (for the record). SIL also held a meeting in Barbados in August and again it was debated apparently wether Bajan is a Creole or not. From what I read in the newspaper they told participants to report their arguments by the end of that month. I haven't heard anymore since. SIL linguists present papers at Caribbean linguistics conference, SIL.org

CaribDigita (talk) 23:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly all of the "linguist sources" you listed say that Bajan is a creole, as shown by User:Aeusoes1. You're not helping your case for it not being a creole at all, you're just adding sources that belong to the preponderance of scholarly literature that seems to agree that Bajan is a creole language. The one source that appears to go against this, "A Survey of Modern English", does not appear to be written by experts in the field of language contact or creolistics, who would be best equipped to pass such judgements. It also does not define what are its objective criteria for making such a pronouncement, especially when the rest of the scholarly literature, as well as conventional wisdom in the field, goes against it. Also, as far as the conference is concerned, I don't see anything at that site indicating they discussed whether or not Bajan is a creole language; newspapers are typically not reliable sources for linguistics topics. It's also worth noting that this wasn't "SIL holding a meeting", it was an academic conference attended by many scholars in the field, only a handful of whom are associated with SIL. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

LOL so now SIL isn't credible either? Whatever... I'm not *that* invested into this topic. I have other things to do. For the record- I also made no mention of Britney Spears either that was all you as well. I was merely showing whom the well respected Caribbean linguist Frank Collymore was. CaribDigita (talk) 21:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never claimed SIL wasn't credible, although you yourself did earlier on this page. I never claimed you made any mention of Britney Spears either, that is what is known as an analogy. Frank Collymore did not have training in linguistics, he was a poet and a performer who had no academic qualifications to comment on the status of Bajan as a creole language or otherwise. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 06:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For someone with more experience to decipher.

CaribDigita (talk) 18:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow CaribDigita, thanks for the examples of Bajan people speaking Standard English or acrolectal Bajan! I look forward to some examples of basilectal Bajan as well. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 21:02, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[10] Most of this song is in acrolectal Bajan, but there are a couple choice lines in mesolectal Bajan: "hey mister DJ, song pon de replay" - syntactically and grammatically different from standard English; "all de gyal pon de dancefloor wantin' some more" - again, syntactically and gramatically different, also notable for its zero copula - "all de gyal pon de dancefloor (Ø) wantin' some more" and lack of distinction between singular and plural nouns "all de gyal..." (instead of "gyals"). These are typical features of creole languages. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 21:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What makes Bajan sound difficult is the accent and the fact that it is spoken fast.

Barbados by Locals™ - Dominoes at Rum Shop The two most difficult spots to understand is where he says 1) "I would describe a rumshop in the sense- whereas like, a bar overseas. You know you go in a bar overseas, right? because I've been to Canada on more than one occasion." and 2) "You drink some drinks and you listen 'a little music. Up by me we do it. You know? We cook some food, drink some drinks, and listen to a little music... "

Ian Hancock [11], Frank Collymore and I believe one or two others point to Bajan as not being a Creole. However, others such as Dr. Richard Allsopp say it is... Linguists appear to remain divided. If you place it against old English, it is less cryptic but when you compare it to modern American English it is worlds apart. Bajan was essentially transplanted to the outer islands of South Carolina when Barbadians moved to settle the Carolinas. It has remained in relative isolation in those islands among the blacks there.

Other peculiarities is there is also a tendency of metathesis in Bajan. Such as "new brand car" instead of "brand new car". Or referring to a certain airline "Jetblue" as blue jet on occasion. CaribDigita (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1) Why did you delete my posting on this talkpage? 2) Those are examples of Barbadians speaking standard English, or of acrolectal Bajan. What language do you think Jamaican ambassadors to English-speaking countries speak in diplomacy? If you were to use that as an example of "Jamaican Creole" to argue that it is not very different from Standard English, clearly you'd convince quite a few people, but that's extremely misleading. Please see Creole continuum. Also, Frank Collymore was not a linguist, by the way - just because you wrote a book commenting on language does not make you a linguist; linguistics is a science, and linguists are scientists, not just popular writers. I have a feeling you're not a linguist; you could write 20 books on Bajan and still not be a linguist. "I's guh church pun Sunduh", an example taken from this page, is clearly not "dialectal" English; Bajan is a creole. Enough academic (read: not Frank Collymore or the Barbados government, but linguists who went to university and studied linguistics and have done research before and have established credentials as scientists) sources agree on this to satisfy WP:RS and other relevant Wikipedia policies, so regardless of your opinions there is no way this article can be changed unless you change academic consensus. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 08:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry that was not intentional to remove your post. I believe I clicked on "show history" to display what changed on the page and merely forgot to goto the most recent one before replying. So as you say, if Frank Collymore isn't an acceptable linguist that still leaves Ian Hancock and Frederic Gomes Cassidy who argue otherwise. CaribDigita (talk) 20:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One dissenting scholar does not change consensus. See WP:UNDUE. Cassidy never argues against the fact that Bajan is the result of a process of an early creolization, though according to him decreolization occurred; note that the designation of a language as a "creole language" refers to its origins rather than its present state, so a "decreolized creole language" is still a creole. We (I and others at this talk page) have already provided a preponderance of sources to back up the position that Bajan is in fact a creole language, your continued insistence to the contrary is not constructive and it seems that you have been unable to find more than a couple of mainstream sources that agree with your position. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A good example of the distinction between origin and present status is Papiamento. Although Papiamento very closely resembles Spanish and Papiamento speakers can often understand Spanish, nearly all linguists agree that Papiamento is a Portuguese-based creole in which a great degree of relexification has taken place from Spanish due to historical events and proximity to Spanish-speaking countries. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you have studied creolistics at all, Bajan is a very clear example of a creole - zero copula (as far as I am aware, unknown in all English varieties except those with an arguable origin in creole), completely restructured verbal paradigm to eliminate conjugation for tense and person and replace it with a system of aspectual markers ("he show", "I does guh" and "I done guh", "gine"), restructuring of pronominal system - "he tail" (instead of "his tail", again an example from the page).--ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of your deceptive examples, let's try some like this:

Bajans speaking their own way, not Standard English --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have long since given up on the subject. However, it's important to note that something "resembling" a creole language also doesn't make it a Creole. It must have gone through- an actual Creolisation process to be a creole language. CaribDigita (talk) 02:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And you would know any of this how? --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 19:20, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More about the Barbadian accent

Interesting show. A parent--swap type programme by the BBC where rebellious British teens are raised by "stricter" Barbadian parents for one week. Shows many people in Barbados speaking in accent.

CaribDigita (talk) 00:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again CaribDigita, this is enough of that... Bajan is not just an accent, it is a fully-fledged language distinct from English, and the fact that almost every person in Barbados can also speak a great deal of (accented) Standard English does not take away from that. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is Bajan they are speaking in. Depending how deep someone's accent is what spells out the difficulty of understanding it. The adults are speaking in "dat" and "de" and that is the extent of it. CaribDigita (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you're wrong once again, Bajan is not an "accent", it is a language. Why would they speak basilectal Bajan on international TV, unless they didn't know standard English? Thanks for trying, though. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 19:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give you the same example I gave before: [12]. Now please tell me, how is that just an accent as you claim? You want to tell me their "accents are deep"? I'm sorry, that's nonsense, please go learn something about linguistics. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 19:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hear what you're saying but even the YouTube example you give isn't all that cryptic and IMHO isn't really anymore cryptic than the examples I outlined above which you seem to say are more like Standard English. That is reality T.V. so it isn't really played up. Infact in some parts where they are speaking in Bajan slang (like near the end of part 4 where Andrea talks about the clothes "appearing to look crab mashed" they went over it in music since non Barbadians wont know that "crab mashed" means a wrinkled garment not properly ironed. Anyway, see below of a small transcript I made of the first 2:30 from the Bajan example you outlined.

Apart from the mic audio being horrible. Plus they keep cross-talking over one another. Their deep partly Jamaican/U.S. street influenced accent makes it harder to decipher. But here is pretty much it. (Here)

[nickname shouted] Shot!
Busy(?)
[Something [intelligible] shouted]

Look!
Morning.
Wait, what going on?
I was here long.
Boy, I hear you here shouting me every since, yea.
Yeah boy. I hollaring for you hard boy. [Yea, and you wouldn't come]. [Boy, you all right boy?]
Yeah boy, but I couldn't move there.
Look, this is my little niece here, little toy thing yea. This thing here, bringing-off a sweet melody yea, and I make a little rhythm there, and I tell myself that I think you would like it, and I don't really want to stop beating it, 'cause don't want to forget it.
[Instrumental]
Hey?
You!
... [Singing] Hey man, and I couldn't get none (of) that sugar...
So I went by Cassandra, and Cassandra tell me she ain't got no sugar. She tell me go by she cousin, or check by she sister name Paula. So I went down by Paula, and I tell Paula to give me some sugar.

But I like that there though [some nickname].
Yea, we gotta' get that in the studio though.
Yea, we gotta' put the mic 'pun (upon) it. Do a little recording. See how it sound, and how all the little things sound. Do it yea!
Yea boy!

It's another R.I.P., Rest In Peace... [Some nickename - Seth?], wake up you duppy (ghost)!
Alright, [Some nickname - Shot?]
Yeah, I just here.
I going 'round the block.
Boy, I stuck in bare den, dead like a door nail, yea.
Oh.
For real, the man did here so, telling him about a little rhythm here so. That I did playing 'pun (upon) this thing here. This little thing here, giving off a nice sound. You want to hear how it sound?
Yea.
Hear this here.
[Instrumental]
Sugar... Couldn't get no sugar...
What you about?
[intelligible] sugar.
Yeah.
You getting out?
Yeah, I gine'(going) and put on a shirt and thing, yea.
Ya duppy, [intelligible] get the France out man? (The word "France" in Bajan is used in place of "hell" or "heck".) For example a parents might say. "Why the France you don't go and sit down." if they don't want to curse. CaribDigita (talk) 22:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you've essentially confirmed everything I said since only about 1% of those sentences are considered grammatical in standard English. Thanks for trying though. Goodbye. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Why is the page not called Bajan Dialect or at least just Bajan?

I understand the categorization as a Creole language (even though idk why linguists couldn’t just come up with a less confusing name for the category) but categorization as a Creole language doesn’t mean the name of the language should be changed when the ppl who speak it haven’t changed it. I noticed this was also done to Jamaican Patois as well. Bajans refer the language as Bajan Dialect or Bajan not Creole not to mention the confusion with languages like the various french creoles who’ve used the term since way before the category existed as the term has a cultural significance in the places those languages are spoken. I think the page name is highly misleading as most Bajans refer to the language as Bajan Dialect. Corosoul (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]