Talk:Bais (clan)

RAO RAM BUX SINGH

Also known as Babu Rao Ram Bux Singh fought against the British. But ultimately his forces were defeated and he was caught at Varanasi and hanged to death in Daundia Khera on 28th of December 1858..

CHANDRIKA BUX SINGH

Born in 1823, son of the King of Bethar State, Ajit Singh, Chandrika Bux Singh came to the thrown after the untimely death of his father. He gave a tough fight to the British during the First war of Independence in 1857. Afterwards also he kept on his struggle. He killed the British Commander Murray and his wife and as a consequence he was arrested alongwith his family. The British decided to kill him in the most cruel way. He alongwith his family and associated was sentenced 'Kalapani ki Saja' as per the judgement on 28th Dec.1859. On 29th Dec,1859, it was ordered that his entire property be auctioned alongwith the above punishment. On his way to Kalapani, he was killed by the British on 30th Dec.1859. TOP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.63.247 (talk) 22:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The Information Regarding the Bais rajput Clan.

Respected member,

                   The Information Regarding the Bais rajput Clan is how much true.From where you collect this information.reply me on my email iD Jitu_0098@yahoo.co.in  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jitu 0098 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC) 

this does not have information regarding the generations of the royal families... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.219.4 (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

***NOTICE TO ALL ASSOCIATED WITH THIS PAGE***

This page is undergoing construction, the main aim is to improve this page greatly with in the next six months so at many times there will appear extensive changes bettering the article with every step.

It is requested that you kindly do not tamper with this page but instead add a request for something to be included.

Any grammatical mistakes such as spelling and punctuation, please kindly correct, otherwise please do not change the article on large scales but instead paste what you want done with the information and references on this talk page.

Also, any information on the subject would be greatly valued. (Please just paste in this discussion page with explanation* and reference*)

Thank you for you co-operation.

--BhainsRajput (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Hey!

Hey!, Its great to see that things are active on the page and people are editing but i have one small request:

If you have any knowledge or a website or book title or scraps of information or simply even any information even the smallest on the subject please post it on the discussion page, i would be only too happy to add it and it would be much appreciated!!! Anything of relevence, even the smallest things may be vital

Thank you! --BhainsRajput (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Tone and content

The tone of this article is completely unacceptable. "honourable warriors"? "extremely wealthy"? "Best dressed"?!!?!? "eminent reputation"? and my personal favorite: "renowned for their courage and valour as warriors "?!???!!

This has got to be cleaned up in a big big way. I don't want to chop it myself because I'm not familiar with the subject but if it doesn't get fixed, I'll do it at some point. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm reinserting the above comment which was deleted. Was it deleted in an attempt to pretend that nobody disputes the neutrality of the article... In any case, enough is enough: the article is even worst than what I remembered. I will flesh out all content which isn't neutral in tone or properly referenced. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 06:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

While 'fleshing out' you practically kicked chunks out of the article you probably never even read. Next time you're going to try and 'flesh out' a page, think about the stuff you're deleting. --90.214.246.47 (talk) 12:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• • • • COMMENT***

Research data before entering

It is stated that there is genetic research in the structural and figer print od DNA of Rajputs and Jats and major differences are seen in their lineages, this is a serious aspect and comment. "please state reference to any such research study done by and scientist" to that part of information or delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.173.66.203 (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

@Utcursch: Sir, that 2401 IP that you previously warned keeps removing sourced content. Please have a look. Thank you.213.205.240.3 (talk) 17:20, 23 February 2019 (UTC) @Arsi786: are you editing while logged out? That is against the rules.213.205.240.3 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 17:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@213.205.240.3: The other guy ain't me so don't accuse me if you don't have any evidence and your references don't say the bais rajput community is only from Uttar Pradesh.Arsi786 (talk) 17:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Arsi786: If you think bais Rajput are in other parts of India then provide source instead of spreading stupidity. You don’t even know how Wikipedia works, why are you here? Learn to read.213.205.240.3 (talk) 17:53, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@213.205.240.3: Listen if you do not have the evidence that says they are only found in uttar pradesh then stop editing and there is a large amount of bais rajput found in azad kashmir in mirpur so you should research more on the topic instead of insulting others and being a keyboard warrior.Arsi786 (talk) 18:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bishonen: please investigate, he keeps removing sourced content and doesn’t understand the rules concerning verifiability.213.205.240.3 (talk) 19:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2019

User:Arsi786 keeps removing sourced content detailing Uttar Pradesh and adding Pakistan. The previous lead section was sourced and detailed that Bais Rajputs are present in Uttar Pradesh. None of the sources mention Pakistan. You will also note that he has been edit warring on this page. Please revert his edit which is unsourced. He is also added an unreliable blog as a source. Thank you.213.205.241.131 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC) 213.205.241.131 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Edit requests are not a method of dispute resolution and will not be completed to further an edit war or dispute. Pinging User:Arsi786. Please have a discussion here on the talk page to sort this out, and seek dispute resolution if needed. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:14, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

@213.205.241.131: The new source I gave is not a blog it mentions bains rajput in sialkot and I cannot find a credible site talking about the bains rajput community in mirpur (Azad Jammu and Kashmir) which I also belong to and your source does not say they are only solely found in uttar pradesh either also I found this website talking about bains rajput in mirpur but its a health report https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4216966/ and . Arsi786 (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Bais, not "bains"

Bais or bains it doesn’t matter “ it’s how you pronounce the words @Sitush: a user notorious for sock accounts and edit warring keeps adding Pakistan on the basis of some flimsy medical journal which mentions "Bains". No reference to the subject matter which is Bais Rajputs. Can you please examine and reach a judgment. All sources show the Bais Rajputs to be present in Baiswara of modern-day UP.Thanks.HaoJungTar (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There are lots of Bains or how ever you pronounce the wording’ however there are Bains rajputs all over in Pakistan’ like Gujerkhan’ Mirpur ‘ siyalkot’and many other regions of Pakistan. I am also Bains rajput. I heard that when the Muslims came from other continents like turkey’ Iran’ Saudi Arabia’ they converted us to Islam ‘ they got married into our people some stayed behind and majority of the went back with their families and children to where they came from’ The Bains Rajputs that stayed behind were less in number and the Hindu Rajput were more there was a clash amongst them and the Muslim Bains Rajputs were casted out with nothing No money ‘ no clothing only what you were wearing “99.9 percent the Bains Rajputs in Pakistan are very lite in colour”””” they travelled all over in different groups “ my side of the family settled in Mirpur Azad Kashmir thank you this might help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7C:9487:6D00:1968:9572:EA41:39D6 (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The source given does not say they are only solely found in uttar pradesh either also I found this website talking about bains rajput in mirpur but its a health report https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4216966/and the spelling is a bit different so what and I am not notoriously known to have sock puppets and your statement that real rajputs can't be found in punjab just shows your mentality are you even a real sri lankan and this dispute got settled why did you bring up again. Arsi786 (talk) 19:05, 07 September 2019 (UTC)

• • On a scholarly article, your only source is a medical report that doesn't even mention the word "Bais". How pathetic. Furthermore, no source shows "Bais" and "Bains" to be synonymous. You simply don't have a case here. And stop the ad hominems. Look forward to being reported. HaoJungTar (talk) 18:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The sources on there don't say anything about they are only found in uttar pardesh the health report is legit you have a flimsy defensive just because its spelled differently you can reject it and there are tons of articles out there talking about the bais rajput community in pakistan but they aren't credible enough for wikipedia and I think your a sock puppet of the ip don't worry I reported you to.Arsi786 (talk) 19:18, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

How can I be a sock puppet of an IP address from 4 months ago? Again, you don't even know how Wikipedia works and you've broken the 3-revert rule.HaoJungTar (talk) 18:31, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

3RR was not violated. You need four reverts to violate 3RR. Anyway, is the Bais population in both India and Pakistan similar enough so that they can be mentioned side-by-side, without further qualification? El_C 18:39, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

the article he posted mentions "Bains", not Bais. No source indicates that they are synonymous.HaoJungTar (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

They are the same they just have a little spelling difference honestly this just a waste of time if you have proof they are different then please give it Arsi786 (talk) 19:48, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Population ratio would be helpful. If 99 percent are in India and one percent are in Pakistan, they cannot be mentioned jointly, on equal footing. El_C 18:50, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

He claims it to be a minor spelling difference but there is no source for that. This article requires a source showing Bains and Bais to be synonymous. If there isn't, then Pakistan would be irrelevant to the article. The fact is, the article is titled BAIS. No alternative spelling is indicated by any of the sources. An new page called Bains should be created.HaoJungTar (talk) 18:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, evidence needs to be provided to tell that Bais and Bains are one and the same. El_C 18:54, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There is website that does mention it but its blacklisted from wikipedia and it talks about the caste numbers in the british raj time period census but pakistan doesn't make its censuses based on caste so its hard to get the numbers but if you google there are tons of groups about the pakistani bais community in azad kashmir for example or in punjab to and the health report spelt it a bit differently it doesn't mean they are two different castes. Arsi786 (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That's not good enough. We need modern figures, or mention of Pakistan will probably need to be removed. We can't mention India and Pakistan jointly, on equal footing, based on a guess! El_C 19:00, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The thing is, if you're correct, then why are the Bais present in Uttar Pradesh and Bains present only in Pakistan? That's a large distance covered with seemingly no similar group in between. So how can they be the same? I don't see the harm in creating a separate Bains article.HaoJungTar (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

We need more reliable sources for a separate article. El_C 19:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There Is no need to create a new page the evidence is there there also countless of facebook groups (not credible) talking about there history in ajk (azad jammu and kashmir in pakistan) and pakistani government is not big on the caste system so its mostly independent bloggers who write about these stuff honestly there is no need to make such a small issue into such a big ordeal. Arsi786 (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't work that way. "Evidence" in Facebook pages is simply not enough to justify the inclusion of Pakistan in this article.HaoJungTar (talk) 19:17, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Once something is disputed, it becomes the onus of the one introducing the edit to gain consensus for their changes, by verifying their claims with reliable sources. El_C 19:18, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That's why I wrote not credible in brackets as its from facebook.Arsi786 (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

By typing in "Bais Rajput" in google books, you'll see that all sources mention them within the context of Uttar Oradesh and Awadh/Oudh (a region in Uttar Pradesh). Furthermore, an article already exists for the Baiswara region in Uttar Pradesh which is synonymous with the Bais Rajputs.HaoJungTar (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Its also brings books about jammu and kashmir like I have said so many times before Arsi786 (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Well show me then. It's easy enough saying it but show me a reliable book that mentions BAIS Rajputs being present in Jammu and Kashmir/Pakistan. It would literally end the debate.HaoJungTar (talk) 19:10, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7ZmucQAACAAJ&dq=bais+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqktLytb_kAhVHSsAKHbglA_cQ6AEIODAD https://www.google.com/search?q=bais+rajput&safe=active&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB74Lxtb_kAhXSmFwKHWgDB-sQ_AUIGCgB&biw=1920&bih=944 Arsi786 (talk) 20:16, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That books source is Wikipedia, it literally says so. That's a circular. Furthermore, there are no pages. How is this an acceptable source.HaoJungTar (talk) 19:18, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, sources that cite Wikipedia are not considered, per WP:CIRCULAR. El_C 19:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0f4zB5rU8icC&pg=PA90&dq=bais+rajput+mirpur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW_vf-t7_kAhVHa8AKHWpkBTEQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=bais%20rajput%20mirpur&f=false Arsi786 (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Please quote directly. El_C 19:26, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That's a self-published book. Entitled "Home From Home" and published by the respectable publishing house of "Raja Tahir Masood". Did I mention that the author is named Raja Tahir Masood?HaoJungTar (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

This naming dispute goes back years. No-one, to my knowledge, has ever produced a reliable source for the synonymity. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, if there is a significant Bais population in Pakistan, there should be reliable sources that say this. El_C 19:30, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The link directly takes you the pages talking about the bais rajput community as well as evidence they have variety of different ways they spell bais rajput but pakistan is not big on caste system the government ignores it but it's still remains big among the people and society.Arsi786 (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think the claim has always been that they go by one name in India and another in Pakistan. This should all be in the archives but I'm off out. Other mooted spellings have included Bhains, Wains etc but no source = no mention. - Sitush (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I asked you to quote directly, Arsi786. El_C 19:39, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

"Many people call the clan by different names for example, bainse or vaince or bhains. The clan history is recorded under Rajput Bais. However the present day most commonly used name to describe the clan in the district of mirpur is the bainse rapjut".Arsi786 (talk) 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@HaoJungTar: what do you say? El_C 20:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

My only concern is that the book is self-published and the author doesn't seem to be a historian or anthropologist. If you feel the source is good enough then I have no problem with something along the lines of this being in the lead: "A community in Pakistan called the Bains claim kinship with the Bais of India" or something like that. It's obviously your call but I'd suggest taking the quality of the source into account. The author himself claims to be a "Bainse Rajput" on the same page and states "writing about my own clan". Is that problematic?HaoJungTar (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not my call. I don't really have an opinion, though of course something that isn't self-published is preferable. El_C 21:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Well my position is clear. 99.9% of sources connect the Bais with Uttar Pradesh/Awadh region including on JSTOR. One self-published autobiography isn't going to sway me. @Sitush: should get the final call given his experience with the topic area. I don't think Pakistan should be given equal weight if it is to be included.HaoJungTar (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, if you both agree that such a third opinion is enough to settle that point of contention — sure. El_C 21:25, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Honestly I don't see the problem of putting both india or pakistan together the bais are found in both countries I gave the sources so its up to the admin.Arsi786 (talk) 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Except the sources for Pakistan are unsatisfactory in my view. Do you think a self-published autobiography is reliable? And that being the only source anyway. Anyway, as you said, it's someone else's call.HaoJungTar (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I gave variety of sources even a health report on the people there but its up to the admin.Arsi786 (talk) 7 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:SPS is never acceptable for caste claims, if only because of the issues related to sanskritisation. - Sitush (talk) 03

57, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Given that the self-published source is unnaccepatble (may even be a circular of Wikipedia as well), I think it's safe to say that Bains and Bais cannot be conclusively tied together. Therefore I think it's safe to remove Pakistan from the lead. I also think India should be narrowed down to Uttar Pradesh but it's not that pressing.HaoJungTar (talk) 09:15, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

It shows you of there existence plus a health report the source is self published source but it does address the issue of bains or bais having variety of different spellings and pronunciations.Arsi786 (talk) 8 September 2019 (UTC)

You keep doing this weird tactic of saying "X may not be reliable but it does show X". Uh, no, it doesn't work that way. If something can't be used on Wikipedia then it has no bearing on the content.HaoJungTar (talk) 09:18, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

You two should take advantage of your dispute resolution resources. There is not going to be a voice of authority that is going to resolve this dispute for you both. It will have to be settled through consensus. Maybe drop a note at both Wikipedia:WikiProject Pakistan and at Wikipedia:Noticeboard for India-related topics? El_C 21:21, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Honestly I doubt we are going to take it that far there is no need then both india and pakistan lot are going to argue. Arsi786 (talk) 7 September 2019 (UTC)

No. If Sitush wishes to not give a third opinion then I will use those resources. There is nothing inherently controversial with this topic that an irrelevant India-Pakistan war will erupt. As I said the reference to Pakistan in the lead is not proven.HaoJungTar (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There literally variety of sources and why would they be a need to lie about it and yet your still denying it and what is your problem exactly just leave both pakistan and india on there and yes let sitush deal with it.Arsi786 (talk) 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Still no acceptable source that shows Bais and Bains to be synonymous. No respectable source = no mention as Sitush stated. Your self-published source was rebuffed. All you really have is "muh Facebook pages", "muh blogs".HaoJungTar (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

I have been absent from Wikipedia for long periods but it looks like this dispute is still rumbling on, judging by the edit history. At present, we have no sources referring to the Bais outside India and no reliable sources seem to have been put forward that state Bais and Bain etc to be synonyms. So I have changed the lead to say India rather than Indian subcontinent. Per WP:LEAD, it is supposed to reflect the body of the article, and per WP:V, we should only use reliable sources & avoid passing mentions. - Sitush (talk) 11:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Request to fellow Bais Rajputs to add the history of our clan/kul

I am providing reference material,if any one has enough time and is willing to edit the history of our ancestors, you can use the following material as source:- 1) Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal / 1 ] ; Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal. Part 1, History, antiquities, etc

VOLUME 34 PART 1, ISSUES 1-4 PAGE NUMBER - 203 of Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal.

Author - Asiatic Society of Bengal

You will find about them a little in the above book as mentioned with page number

2) Sketch of the Family History of the Rana of Khajurgaon in the Rai Bareli District.

You will find the most of the history of Bais rajput after their migration from their origin place.

Title - A Sketch of the Family History of the Rana of Khajurgaon in the Rai Bareli District. Published - 1906 Original from the University of Wisconsin - Madison Digitized - 5 Apr 2012 Length - 42 pages

Thank you 2405:201:4015:B024:C095:1A1A:CD32:37B (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

bais rajput in suryavanshi 2409:40E3:59:EA6:A11C:D5CF:943A:800B (talk) 09:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)