Talk:Manager (Gaelic games)

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Title and WP:USEENGLISH

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived.

On what basis are we stating that "bainisteoir" is more commonly used in English than "manager"? The user who unilaterally made this move (without, I would note, any discussion on the talk page or the dozens of other pages now under revision following this move) equated the term to "Taoiseach". This is not an apples-for-apples comparison by a long stretch. Suggesting that "bainisteoir" is the only (or even the most common-used) term in English is misleading. At best. I would note, for example, that the GAA (only today) used the term "manager" in its own releases about a related subject. Looking at WP:GOOGLETEST results (the method suggested by the related policy/criteria), the use is perhaps 80:20, or even 70:30, in favour of the English term. Even if it were 60:40, or even 50:50, the WP:DIVIDEDUSE principle would expect that we use the "least surprising" term. And, frankly, given that a non-Irish reader will find the term surprising (bordering on impenetrable), I think this move ill-advised and discussion necessary. Certainly before someone goes on a crusade (as seems to be the case) altering each of many hundreds of articles. To reflect a term which, frankly, doesn't seem to meet the expected WP:USEENGLISH criteria. Thoughts? Guliolopez (talk) 00:53, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At the the WP:DIVIDEDUSE principle you refer to it says the following: "Search-engine hits are generally considered unreliable for testing whether one term is more common than another, but can suggest that no single term is predominant in English. If there are fewer than 700 hits,[1] the actual count (gotten by paging to the final page of hits) may be accurate for the engine's particular corpus of English, but whether this represents all English usage is less certain."

Here are some verifiable reliable sources where the word is used in English: The Irish News, The Argus, Irish Examiner Pundit Arena. The term is also used in the GAA's own match programmes. --Maor Foirne (talk) 01:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. That match programs use the term is not evidence that the term is widely used outside of match programs. Also, frankly, a half dozen mentions of the term in selected news articles is not evidence that it is the most common use of the term. You may dismiss a GOOGLETEST, but a search for "manager" and "GAA", or "manager"/"GAA"/"football". Returns 8 million and 6 million hits respectively. An equivalent search for "bainisteoir" just 300,000 results. I would be interested to hear inputs from other broader project contributors (and WikiProject GAA contributors), to establish whether there is any consensus agreement for your position (and the related changes), before you continue on your SPA crusade to change the content and categorisation of many hundreds of articles across the project. Guliolopez (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum. You suggest that the "Irish News" and "Irish Examiner" for example have a preference for using the term "bainisteoir" over "manager". (That the former is more common than the latter). I would note that, a search on the "Irish News" website returns just 86 results for bainisteoir, but 30,000 results for manager/GAA. And, an equivalent search on the "Irish Examiner" archives returns just 400 for bainisteoir (mainly matches on the TV program which contains that name), but 51,000 for manager/gaa. Those sources simply establish that SOME people use the term in English. Not that more or MOST people use the term in English. Which is what would have to be established to upend the established WP:USEENGLISH guideline.

I would also note that there was a very timely test case for this claim/topic yesterday. With the departure of Kevin McStay from Roscommon. And I would note that NONE (ZERO) of the main news sources (from the Examiner, Irish Times, Indo, JoeDOTie, RTÉ, SkySports, and even the GAA themselves) used the term "bainisteoir". ALL OF THEM use the term "manager". If, as you seem to be claiming and applying, "bainisteoir" were the most common term, wouldn't it be expected that AT LEAST ONE OF THEM might have used the common term?

It is clear to me that "bainisteoir" is not the common term in English, and unless or until there is consensus to the contrary, then you please need to stop what you are doing. As it is incredibly disruptive to a large number of articles.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 02:11, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Upon review, I have determined to restore the text. The responsibility for demonstrating the need for a change, the support for a change (in references, policy or consensus) is with the person proposing that change. I see absolutely no such support, and have hence largely restored the original status. This, in particular, had the effect of the restoring the (otherwise laughable) suggestion that the term "bainisteoir" was imported from England and the BCC. When, CLEARLY, it was the term "manager" that was imported from the FA/etc. Guliolopez (talk) 22:30, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Noted managers"

Hi. Per WP:LISTCRITERIA, selection/inclusion criteria for lists should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by sources. The current list of "noted managers" doesn't meet this expectation (in that is unclear what notability criteria has been used, and - even if it were clear - provides no sources to support). For example, why is Offaly's Eugene McGee included? Perhaps the subject should have an article - but doesn't at present. Typically the minimum criteria for a notability-based list is that the member has an article. A "no red links" criteria. Or, for example, why are managers with a limited number of titles/etc listed along side those with many. The inclusion criteria in List of Gaelic football managers seems to be length of tenure. And the List of All-Ireland Senior Football Championship winning managers seems to be number of All-Irelands. Unless other notability can be defined, I'm inclined to change what we have here to a prose-based summary (of the most prolific, most long-lived or most-travelled managers), and link to the "lists of hurling/football managers by wins/tenure" for the rest. Otherwise this becomes a CFORK with unclear/undefined/unsupported inclusion criteria... Guliolopez (talk) 23:06, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a week or so since my note above. As I hadn't heard back on the proposal/topic above, I've gone ahead and made the change. (Essentially paring back the "list of noted managers". From a seemingly arbitrary list. To a sub-set of the most successful managers in each code. With a link to the existing "list of winning managers" articles.) Guliolopez (talk) 00:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]