Talk:Azerbaijanis/Arguments

This is the Arguments page for the Azerbaijani people article. Any comments not directly relating to the content of the Azerbaijani people page may be moved here. Please respond here.

If you want to know what Azerbeycani's are ask us!

This kind of nonsense is just so hilarious to read. To watch non Azeris foam at the mouth, argue amongst themselves and think they have the right to dictate who and what a people are is really funny.

However, one thing I see some people hate to do, is ask the very people you are speaking of how they percieve themselves. It's very clear why you do this, it's because you find it hard to swallow the response.

Whther you like it or not were Turks, we speak Azeri Turk language, and among ourselves, feel Turk, have Turk history, also Russian and Iranian, dont get me wrong here,but as Hamin mentioned 'Turkic influence was dominant since 10 century', This is us, whether you like it or not, I know it hurts but there's no point you guys living a lie or thinking "YOU" have the right to tell us who we are. No-one is holding a gun to our heads saying, You are Turkish, we are what we are, if we weren't Turks we would say we're not , we dont need NON-Azeri Turks speaking on our behalth, I mean thanks for your interest and everything but its not needed focus about yourself. and I must admit that DNA isnt everything, you chose your friend not by race or religion, and for me/us the most important thing is friendship, not a DNA, DNA full of air isnt helping much. I think it is our right to chose the ones who care about us, and not hate us. And of course language is the key to build the friendship, and we found that friendship.

As an additional point, we're not Aryans or for a matter of fact "Iranians", with all respect to those who are.

http://www.dalgam.com/Tebriz%20ayaqlanma.jpg

YOU CAN'T FOOL ANYONE ANYMORE, TAKE A LOOK THERE'S OVER A MILLION THEIR IN SOUTH AZERBAYCAN, MARCHING AS TURKS FOR THEIR RIGHTS AS TURKS, TAKE YOUR CHEAP PROPOGANDA ELSEWHERE, (TAKE A LOOK AT THE SIGN THEY ARE MAKING WITH THEIR HANDS, YEP THE SIGN OF THE LEGENDARY WOLF ;_) )

Interesting. I hear that the "Grey Wolves" believe in a "racist and supremacist ideology similar to Nazi concepts". So all Azeris are now according to you, supporters of Turkish terrorism?[1] I digress. Keep on dreaming if you think Azarbaijan will secede from Iran. Hah.--Zereshk 04:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am Azari and I am an Iranian! 72.57.230.179

Urghh not again.. I think first of all South Azeris need to have rights to educate themselfs in their own language, which is Azeri and not Persian, according to amnesty international there are 30 million Azeris in Iran but not even 1 Azeri school, I think this is the first thing that needs to end. By the way shouldnt a new article be made about the recent demonstrations in Iran? We cant just ignore those? Baku87 09:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87[reply]

Firstly, in Iran all ethnic groups have the right to learn in their own language if they choose, but not through the public school system. No country in the world teaches another language besides the offocial lahnguage at public schools. SO do not make statments about subjects you have no idea about. In the Republic off Azarbaijan why are their no Talysh or Russian or Armenian schools? In the US they teach English in the public schools not SPanish or another language. In Iran they teach Persian in public school, but if anyone wants to learn another language they are allowed and their are verious ways of learning including private school and university level. Azari is taught at university level as is Kurdish and other languages. Azari media also exists at the public level such as literature, newspapaers, and radio. So please do not spread your hate mongering bias. 72.57.230.179

You probably are not familiar with the situation in Azerbaijan. In Azerbaijan there are many Russian schools, in fact none of the Russian schools that existed in Soviet times has been closed. This fact was mentioned even by the Russian president Putin. So you can choose whether to study in Azeri or Russian school. In Soviet times there were Armenian schools in Baku, but after the forceful exchange of population between Armenia and Azerbaijan they closed down. As for Talysh language, it is taught in primary schools of Lenkoran region, see Ethnologue [2] As for Iran, Azerbaijani language is almost prohibited there, even though the situation is a little better than it was at the times of the shah. Grandmaster 19:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, "Azerbaijani language is almost prohibited there" - keep political propoganda off Wikipedia please. It's spoken by almost 40% of the people as it has been since they adopted the language, how is it exactly "prohibited"? --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See the report by Amnesty International: Those who seek to promote Azeri Turkish cultural identity are viewed with suspicion by the Iranian authorities, who often accuse them of vague charges such as "promoting pan-Turkism" [3] Grandmaster 20:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, we can all sit behind a monitor pretending this and that, all we hear are fantasy stories about Azeri Turks and its really quite hilarious.

Look at that picture, its in Tabriz, if we love the racist joke's directed at us, LIKE CALLING PEOPLE COCKROACHES (If you ask some Persians they say that Azeri Turks love being racially abused, yeah the cheek of it I know!) Why are so many people protesting, there are people as far as the eye can see marching as Turks for their rights and to stop the oppression against their identity.

If you don't change these attitudes and carry on sticking your head's in the sand actually believing that were all happy Persians etc etc guess what your just gonna deepen the rift.

There is a big cultural re-awakening in South Azerbaycan, this cannot be stopped so you may aswell embrace us for WHAT WE ARE not what YOU WANT US TO BE.

P.s, your paranoid stories about Bozqurt are hilarious, you see all those people in the picture

http://www.dalgam.com/Tebriz%20ayaqlanma.jpg

They arn't making that sign because they belong to a pollitical party etc, they do it because in Turkic mythology the Wolf is an important animal ;_))

Tabriz_han

Regards —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnstevens5 (talk • contribs).

The fact that an Azeri drew that cartoon and also the fact that you keep calling yourself a Turk instead of an Azeri speak for its self. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 12:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dude just stop the lies, you can't decieve us anymore, well pictures can tell a thousand words....

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/3.3.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/1.6.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/merend2.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/axim.jpg

Sorry buts thats not a few hundred not even a few hundred people, there are close to a million there.

This isn't in Azerbaycan, this isn't in Turkey, this is in Iran by the TORKE of Iran ;_) Accept it.

Have you ever been to Iran? Azeri Turks arnt even called Azeri Turks their just called "Torke" ie Turk, that's a fact if you knew Iran you would know that I don't know why your trying to lie like this, its an accepted fact in Iran that they're Turks, try telling them their not ;_)

Tabriz_han —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.201.80 (talk • contribs).

Those 10,000 people did not demonstrate because they are "Turks" but for their rights, no matter how much Pan-Turks would like to think otherwise.

Lol they are called Tork because they speak a Turkic language, who is exactly trying to hide that?! However "Mr. John Stevens", as long as there is IRAN, Turkish propoganda will not gain anything. Azaris are proud Iranians. Just look at the name of AZARI to understand who they are.

Ps. This is an article discussion page not a political forum. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 12:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Azerbaijan the language Azeri, Russian and Talish are thought at public schools, you have a choice in the beginning and can always transfer to another language school. For example I did Russian first but then transfered to Azeri to learn Latin alphabet before coming to Western Europe. We also have mass media in many different languages from Spanish to Talish to Farsi, but in South Azerbaijan its different, there is not even a single private school which teaches Azeri and alot of people are trying to hide these facts, but these pictures speak more then thousands word. Baku87 21:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87[reply]

Give it up. Article 15 of Iran's constitution reads:

"The Official Language and script of Iran, the lingua franca of its people, is Persian. Official documents, correspondence, and texts, as well as text-books, must be in this language and script. However, the use of regional and tribal languages in the press and mass media, as well as for teaching of their literature in schools, is allowed in addition to Persian."

Therefore no one can have an "only Kurdish" or "only Azeri" or "only Arabic" school. Rather, they can have a Kurdish or Arabic or Azeri school that also follows the curricula of the Department of Education and that has classes in their own language/culture in addition to the national curriculum as well. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 23:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everybody knows the Iranian regime doesnt allow other languages, if it was really allowed then howcome the 30 million Azeris in Iran dont even have a single school which teaches Azeri. The Iranian constitution might say that all are equal but their constitution also says some other stuff like human rights. But in reality the non-Persians dont have human rights there. Baku87 12:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87[reply]

I mean common, just be honest, look at the pictures theres close to a million there there are marching as Turks thats the reality, look at their hands what's going on there? is it all a big conspiracy, I don't understand why you blaim Azerbaijan or Turkey for this they didn't fund or support it.

The reality is, Turks of Iran want their language, identity and rights recognised, as long as you carry on with this self-destructive racist chauvanism and pretending that everything's just fantastic and rosy these problems will escalate and escalate.

Accept people for what they are not what you'd like them to be!

Turks in Iran are not a minority, they are the largest group, Azeri-Qasqai-Turkmen can understand each other, there population is roughly 30 million, Azeri Turks alone constitutre 23-24 million which is more than the Persian population according to ethnologue.com.

They deserve recognition and equality.

--Johnstevens5 00:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article's, Essay's and views by Azeri Turks - LET US SPEAK WE HAVE A VOICE WE DON'T WANT PERSIANS SPEAKING FOR US!

READ WHOLE ARTICLE HERE

http://www.anayurdu.com/auimages/01ISouthAzerbaijan.pdf

CSIS Caucasus Project Meeting Notes

Azerbaijani Turks of Iran: Will They Lead a Revolution Again?

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/events/020808.pdf

A Look at Hegemony, Racism, and Center-Periphery Relations in Contemporary Iran

by

ALIREZA ASGHARZADEH

(Paper presented in a seminar on Race and Racism, University of Toronto

http://www.southazarbaijan.com/articles/new/?number=1

Iranian Azerbaijan: A Brewing Hotspot

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/pub2/0411IRAN.pdf

Azeri poet, Bulut Qarachorlu,

Look at my misfortune

My thoughts:

Forbidden

My feelings:

Forbidden

To remember my past:

Forbidden

To dream of my future:

Forbidden

To mention my parents’ names:

Forbidden

Do you know that when I was born

the very utterance of my first words

was Forbidden?

Without my own knowledge

The language of my mother into which I was born

was Forbidden Yes Forbidden…

--Johnstevens5 01:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/August/Azeri/Images/photo1.jpg

--Johnstevens5 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When are we Going to See Proof that Azaris are Genetically Turkic

It has been ages since these citations have not been verified. Verification is needed. If not delete the material. the amount of time granted has been generious. The Azaris Iranian background has been verified through various scientific and academic sources, but the Turkic claim has not. The only think that has been verified is the Turkic langauge.

Certain editors try and avoid this, but if you do not give citations those claims will be deleted!!! 72.57.230.179

Dude there is no such thing as pure Race's and your Nation is not determined by race can't you understand that?

English today are of the English nation, speak English have English culture however, genetically they will have Germanic, Nordic, French, Roman, Celtic and Native genetic make-up, does this stop them being English? NO

Azeri Turks like any other people are not of "pure blood", this changes nothing, it wouldn't change if they were from the Moon, just accept it man were Turks. We have Turkic genetic makeup, Persian, Arab, Caucasian jeez who knows theres some of us with African mixture, if an African came a few generations ago and today mixed and became accepted as a Turk (we are very accepting) would you say, sorry YOUR NOT ALLOWED your not of the right "GENES"

Sorry but that's not only disgusting but unbelievably racist and sick.

p.s Persians arnt pure either, you have Arab blood, Turkic blood etc etc not exactly "pure Aryans" are ya —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.201.80 (talk • contribs)

Ya no one claimed to be anything pure, but the fact s Azaris are Iranians. I have looked at all these sources and the whole ta;l page. This is the first time I am saying something about the issue. I think that the Turkic claims look very weak and really have no verification outside of language. The Iranian issue is very strong and has backup. The other editors just play a spinster game switching the subject. That is my 2 cents. 72.138.203.234

We'll I am glad that you agree that Azaris are Turkic speaking ethnic Iranians. That is the whole point. It is also nice to see you acknowlegde the genetic evidence unlike some editors who pretend not to see it or know anything about. 72.57.230.179

What a load of chauvanistic racism, there are people with Caucasion genetics, Semitic genetics, Afro-Black genetics, Turkic genetics, Persian genetics among Azeri Turk.

Again, race does not equal nation, you can be of any race but be a Turk or any other nation, today Azeri Turks are Turks they speak Turkish and they have a Turkish idenity.

This ignorant attitude dreamt up by the Shah 50 years ago that somehow Azeri Turks are TORKE-KHAR and that their total fools who are Persian in denial trying to be Turks is exactly the reason why their is a cultural re-awakening in South Azerbaycan and backlash against these Persian attitude.

Accept people for what they are not what you'd like them to be, if you really like Turks then support them and stop these silly stories which will get you knowhere.

--Johnstevens5 00:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Turkic People; the Myth

Turks west of central asia are linguistically turkic, not ethnically turkic. even turks from turkey will tell you that they're descendents are anatolians. it is known that the turkification of the region happened. turks are amongst some of the least pure people when it comes to genetic testing. the turks west of central asia are mostly turkified, iranics, arabs, cacausians, anatolians, greeks, armenians, etc...

the azari's have no turkish origion. they were turkified. history shows this. yes, it is true that some turks did penetrated the sassanid empire, BUT NOT IN ENOUGH NUMBERS TO BE DOMINANT. teh azari's still maintained their ethnic composition until the seljuk's heavily settle the regions of anatolia and caucasus, which lead to the turkification of the region. even today, there are groups of iranics who have still survived in the regions, such as talysh's. Iranian Patriot 15:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me put it this way, this article needs a history section --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

my opinion is that the only thing that should be discussed in the turk origion section is the turkification of the region.Iranian Patriot 23:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I Strongly Agree; The Turkification of the reion is the only point in connection to a Turkic background. The proponents of those myths should know this. Certain editors are pushing fictatious claims, they pretend not to see the genetic and historical evidence. On the countrary, they have not cited any of their claims about a Turkic background which they are being given a generous period of time to fill, but will soon be deleted due to lack of verification. 72.57.230.179

Shorts

Iran's Azeris actively participated in the Iran-Iraq war. Seen here is a cemetery of Azeris killed during the Iran-Iraq war. Photo is by Zereshk.

All,

Just to clear things up,

The cartoonist (which led to the unrests) was himself an Azeri.
The unrests in fact first started in Tehran, and then reached Azarbaijan with a one or 2 week delay.
There are demonstrations in Iran for "rights" all the time. For example, you can see demonstrations for freeing political activists[4][5], for protesting the govt [6], for women's rights [7], for student's rights[8], bus driver rights [9], teacher rights [10], labor union rights [11], etc etc etc...
Azeri language is allowed (in addition to Persian) in schools in Iran, as per article 15 of the constitution of Iran, and is taught at what are called "gheir-i ente'faa-i" schools.
Iran and the Republic of Azarbaijan have strong relationships. Just yesterday, Iran opened its first automobile manufacture plant in Azarbaijan Republic [12]. It is Turkey that is trying to fabricate and hijack the "Turkish rights" unrests between Azeris in Iran. The old Persian-Ottoman rivalry indeed.

Lets not try to fish out of muddy waters here. Half of Iran's economy is practically run by Azeris. Azaris own Iran and belong to Iran. Just like all other minorities do. If it werent for Azeris, Iran's constitutional revolution would not have succeeded.

Yasashar Iran.--Zereshk 03:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is Paranoia

I mean common, just be honest, look at the pictures theres close to a million there there are marching as Turks thats the reality, look at their hands what's going on there? is it all a big conspiracy, I don't understand why you blaim Azerbaijan or Turkey for this they didn't fund or support it. The reality is, Turks of Iran want their language, identity and rights recognised, as long as you carry on with this self-destructive racist chauvanism and pretending that everything's just fantastic and rosy these problems will escalate and escalate.

Accept people for what they are not what you'd like them to be!

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/3.3.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/1.6.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/merend2.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/axim.jpg

Everyone can see past your propoganda.

There are 30 million Turk in Iran, if you don't accept this it will be your own down-fall.

--Johnstevens5 00:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Give it up. Azaris want their rights, they don't wanna seperate like Kurds do in Turkey where police kills them in dozens. As you can see, ethnic minorities can go on rallys peacefully without getting killed. Azaris in Iran get the highest positions in the government (Supreme leader), while Kurds can not even celebrate Norouz properly in Turkey without harassment!!

Do Azaris want freedom from opression? Yeah, just like everyone else in Iran.

However they are not running away like Kurds and Zazas are from Turkey, so wake up my friend and give it up. People are people and they need their rights, Iranian, Turkish or simply Azari. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 00:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article's, Essay's and views by Azeri Turks - LET US SPEAK WE HAVE A VOICE WE DON'T WANT PERSIANS SPEAKING FOR US!

READ WHOLE ARTICLE HERE

http://www.anayurdu.com/auimages/01ISouthAzerbaijan.pdf

CSIS Caucasus Project Meeting Notes

Azerbaijani Turks of Iran: Will They Lead a Revolution Again?

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/events/020808.pdf

A Look at Hegemony, Racism, and Center-Periphery Relations in Contemporary Iran

by

ALIREZA ASGHARZADEH

(Paper presented in a seminar on Race and Racism, University of Toronto

http://www.southazarbaijan.com/articles/new/?number=1

Iranian Azerbaijan: A Brewing Hotspot

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/pub2/0411IRAN.pdf

Azeri poet, Bulut Qarachorlu,

Look at my misfortune

My thoughts:

Forbidden

My feelings:

Forbidden

To remember my past:

Forbidden

To dream of my future:

Forbidden

To mention my parents’ names:

Forbidden

Do you know that when I was born

the very utterance of my first words

was Forbidden?

Without my own knowledge

The language of my mother into which I was born

was Forbidden Yes Forbidden…

--Johnstevens5 01:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/August/Azeri/Images/photo1.jpg

--Johnstevens5 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeri Turk protests in Iran against anti-Turk racism

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/3.3.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1503/1902/1600/1.6.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/merend2.jpg

http://www.dalgam.com/axim.jpg

Sorry buts thats not a few hundred not even a few hundred people, there are close to a million there.

This isn't in Azerbaycan, this isn't in Turkey, this is in Iran by the TORKE of Iran ;_) Accept it.

Have you ever been to Iran? Azeri Turks arnt even called Azeri Turks their just called "Torke" ie Turk, that's a fact if you knew Iran you would know that I don't know why your trying to lie like this, its an accepted fact in Iran that they're Turks, try telling them their not ;_)

I mean common, just be honest, look at the pictures theres close to a million there there are marching as Turks thats the reality, look at their hands what's going on there? is it all a big conspiracy, I don't understand why you blaim Azerbaijan or Turkey for this they didn't fund or support it. The reality is, Turks of Iran want their language, identity and rights recognised, as long as you carry on with this self-destructive racist chauvanism and pretending that everything's just fantastic and rosy these problems will escalate and escalate.

Accept people for what they are not what you'd like them to be!

Turks in Iran are not a minority, they are the largest group, Azeri-Qasqai-Turkmen can understand each other, there population is roughly 30 million, Azeri Turks alone constitutre 23-24 million which is more than the Persian population according to ethnologue.com.

They deserve recognition and equality.

--Johnstevens5 00:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Article's, Essay's and views by Azeri Turks - LET US SPEAK WE HAVE A VOICE WE DON'T WANT PERSIANS SPEAKING FOR US!

Alot of information for the article can be found here, written by actualy Azeri Turks, not people telling Azeri Turks who and what they are like what is happening here.

READ WHOLE ARTICLE HERE

http://www.anayurdu.com/auimages/01ISouthAzerbaijan.pdf

CSIS Caucasus Project Meeting Notes

Azerbaijani Turks of Iran: Will They Lead a Revolution Again?

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/events/020808.pdf

A Look at Hegemony, Racism, and Center-Periphery Relations in Contemporary Iran

by

ALIREZA ASGHARZADEH

(Paper presented in a seminar on Race and Racism, University of Toronto

http://www.southazarbaijan.com/articles/new/?number=1

Iranian Azerbaijan: A Brewing Hotspot

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/pub2/0411IRAN.pdf

Azeri poet, Bulut Qarachorlu,

Look at my misfortune

My thoughts:

Forbidden

My feelings:

Forbidden

To remember my past:

Forbidden

To dream of my future:

Forbidden

To mention my parents’ names:

Forbidden

Do you know that when I was born

the very utterance of my first words

was Forbidden?

Without my own knowledge

The language of my mother into which I was born

was Forbidden Yes Forbidden…

--Johnstevens5 01:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/August/Azeri/Images/photo1.jpg

--Johnstevens5 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Kitabi-Dede-Qorqud 1300 year old - Unesco award

Azerbaijan 1998 One thousand three hundredth anniversary of the epic Azerbaijani legend Kitab-i Dede Qorqud

UNESCO DOCUMENT http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001194/119498e.pdf

This is from pre-Islamic Turkic era and many references are made to Azeri Turks its also part of the heritage of the people.

Also Koroglu, Oguznama, Nasreddin Hoca etc are all part of the Turk identity of the people.

--Johnstevens5 01:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

dede qorqod once again

Look My pan-turkis friend. Unlike Turkey where Kurds do protest in millions, the number of Azeri protestors were insignificant. Your 30 million figure is bloated, but that is another issue. Now as per your big lie. Every country can make up a lie and UNESCO will sponser it. It doesn't make it historicaly legitimate though. There is only two manuscripts of dede Korkut work (compare it to say Shahnameh with 1000+ manuscripts). Dede-Qorqod contains about 150 Persian words and 300 Arabic words. It talks about Iranians (tats) with beards (Oghuz Turks at that time were mainly mongloid like Turkomens) doing Azzan while Iranians were not Islamified yet 1300 years ago. It talks about the land of Rum, while at that time it was not even at the hands of Muslims! Dede Korkut (the culture of Oghuz Turks) is totally from the Oghuz culture. [13]. Indeed to show that is not as old as ultra-nationalist pan-turks claim, the word "istanbul" is found in this book. And I quote[14]: The merchants set out on their long journey and traveled steadily for many days and nights. They came at last to the city of Istanbul.

The name Istanbul was chosen fairly recently (in 1453) for the former constantinope and assuming Dede Qoqod was written in 1453, then there is no way a manuscript exists that is 400 years older. As per the second part of the above sentence and Oguz-Nama, I haven't seen anything reliable from pan-turkists about Oguz Nama. But there is a work by a certain Rashid al-Din Tabib of the Ilkhanid era in PERSIAN commonly also known as Oguz-Nama.[15]. Author: Rashīd al-Dīn Tabīb, 1247?-1318 and the book is written in the Ilkhanid era and has been translated to Turkmen and other languages. None of the major references claim anything about Turkish presence in Iranian Azarbaijan or Anatolia before Islam and the couple of Khazar and Hun incursions in the caucus does not translate to wide settlements. --Ali doostzadeh 04:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Holes in the Article, Shariatmadari

Now I know this must be a touchy topic for some because they keep DELETING it but its VERY IMPORTANT and deserves a place in the Article!!!

Why is there no mention of Ayatollah Shariatmadari, he is one of the KEY reasons the Azeri Turks revolted in Iran, he promised equality, an end to racism, a federal state, acceptance of the Turks language and identity.

However, after the revolution he was PLACED UNDER HOUSE ARREST AND LEFT TO DIE, Azeri Turks never forget this! next Khomeni carried on the oppressive Persian orientated view and lived up to none of the promises.

The people were lied to and this lie is building up and up and comming to a point where they are having enough of it all.

Shariatmadari must be mentioned and his image used instead of Khomeni, the people have so much love and respect for Shariatmadari WHY IS HE NOT HONOURED, A MATYR WHO DIED FOR THE AZERI TURKS AND THEIR RIGHTS!

The below is fully sourced, referrenced and is an "Amnesty Report", it can be used in the article.

Grand Ayatollah Kazem Shariatmadari himself was also later placed under house arrest. With many followers among the Azeri population of northwest Iran, he had been an important figure in the religious opposition during the period under the former Shah. Grand Ayatollah Shariatmadari had opposed Article 110 of the Iranian Constitution, passed in December 1979, which created the post of vali-ye faqih, apparently claiming that it contradicted the concept of the "national sovereignty of the people", also expressed in the Constitution. He was also reported to have repeatedly stated that the clergy should not participate in the political running of the country .

In December 1979, unrest broke out in Tabriz after Grand Ayatollah Shariatmadari’s house in Qom was attacked reportedly by supporters of Grand Ayatollah Khomeini, apparently on account of his objections to the Constitution. At least two of his supporters were reportedly killed. The unrest continued until January 1980. It was at about this time that Grand Ayatollah Shariatmadari was reported to have been placed under house arrest.(12) Keesings Contemporary Archives, 20 June 1980.)

In 1982 he acknowledged on television (reportedly after the arrest of relatives including his pregnant daughter and two sons-in-law) of having been aware of a coup plot in which Sadeq Qotbzadeh, a former Foreign Minister, was implicated. Ahmad Abbasi, the Grand Ayatollah’s son-in-law, was also tried in the same case and sentenced to eight months’ imprisonment and ten years’ house arrest. Sadeq Qotbzadeh, and up to 70 army officers, were later executed.(13) See Amnesty International Report 1983 Grand Ayatollah Shariatmadari died in June 1986. His supporters were prevented from holding a public funeral and he was buried secretly in the middle of the night in a remote place.

SOURCE: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMD...OUNTRIES%5CIRAN

Over the past century, several major anti-government movements have been launched from the region, starting with Iran's constitutional revolution in 1905. Azerbaijanis also claim to have started the Islamic Revolution of 1978-79. Its independent spirit was exploited by the Soviet Union in the immediate post-World War II period, when Azerbaijanis tried to set up an independent People's Republic of Azerbaijan in 1945. For a short period, they succeeded. Then the Soviet Union tried to convert it into a communist republic. The United States intervened at that time, and Iran took the extraordinary measure of using the World Court in the Hague to get the Soviets to withdraw.

Ever since this period, the Iranian central state has kept a wary eye on the Azerbaijanis. Under the Shah, publication in Azeri and other minority languages was repressed, and although there has been some relaxation of this policy, publication and school instruction in Azeri is discouraged.

Under the Islamic Republic, chief resistance to the form of government espoused by Ayatollah Khomeini came from Ayatollah Shariatmadari, who had extensive support in Azerbaijan. When Khomeini held a referendum on the kind of government Iranians were to choose, he gave voters only one choice: an Islamic republic with the chief ayatollah as head. Shariatmadari lobbied for wider choice, and his followers rioted and occupied the Tabriz radio station. Eventually, Shariatmadari was arrested and stripped of his religious credentials. Azerbaijanis were deeply resentful of this action.

The idea of independence for Azerbaijan is still alive. Chehregani says he was welcomed warmly across the Iranian border in the Republic of Azerbaijan recently. That country's citizens would welcome reunification with Iranian Azerbaijan, something that the Iranians do not favor. Chehregani has espoused a government for Iran that would be a federation, somewhat like the United States or Germany, where individual states would have a degree of autonomy.

SOURCE: http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_arti...b2a755d420116a4

Racism and Xenophobia

In the periods before and during the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Hezbullah’s rhetoric of salvation coupled with their romanticization of an Islamic society in which exploitation, racism, and discrimination would be non-existent, breathed new life into the struggle of Iran’s various nationalities for self-determination. Such notions as racism, discrimination, and even nationalism were supposed to be alien to the spirit of ‘the true Islam.’

In an Islamic society governed by an Islamic Faqih there would be no room for racial oppression. As a matter of fact, Ayatollah Khomeini’s famous saying that “Islam is against nationalism and nationalism is against Islam,” written in colorful letters adorned the walls of all major cities and towns during the early days of the Islamic rule. Accordingly, in the constitutional text of the Islamic Republic, as well as in all governmental literature, the word “mellat” (nation) was replaced with the word “umma” or in Persian accent, ‘ommat’ (the community of believers), emphasizing thus the non-nationalist character of the new community.

During the Pahlavi monarchy (1925-1978), the multiethnic, multinational and multicultural character of the Iranian society had been vigorously denied and brutally suppressed. With the demise of the absolute monarchism, various nationalities were expecting the realization and restoration of their social and national rights. Among various groups, two major Azerbaijani and Kurdish nationalities posed the greatest challenge to the new regime. The Azerbaijanis or Azeris, as the largest nationality in Iran, comprised over thirty-five percent of the entire population at the time and were mobilized around the reformist grand Ayatollah Shariatmadari and his “Muslim Peoples’ Party.” Among other things, the party worked towards acknowledging Iran’s multicultural, multi-ethnic and multi-lingual character, emphasizing on linguistic equality, lifting of discriminatory policies, and creation of civil society (see also Razmi, 2000).

Nevertheless, after the consolidation of Islamic rule, the highly romanticized rhetoric regarding racial and ethnic equality was all but disappeared into the thin air. Following the previous regime’s racist doctrines, Farsi, the mother tongue of Iran’s Persian minority, was accorded the status of ‘national language’ of all Iranians. Further more, Farsi was elevated to the status of ‘the second language of Islam,’ following the Arabic. This way, not only all the non-Persian Iranians had to learn Farsi but even non-Iranian Muslims were encouraged to learn and speak it. As a result, the language and culture of non-Persian nationalities such as Azeris, Kurds, Baluchs, Arabs, Turkmans and others were subjected to eradication and annihilation.

In legal terms, Article 115 of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic clearly stated that the president of the country should be a Shia Muslim (Man). This was a blatant discrimination against over twenty-two percent of the population who were either Sunny Muslims or non-Muslims--not to mention the over 50 percent female population along with a sizeable number of seculars. Other Articles in Penal and Civil Codes demonstrated sharp inequalities between Muslims and non-Muslims in areas of criminality, inheritance, citizenship, divorce, schooling, employment and so on (see for example Articles 12, 88, 121, 147, 207, and 494 of the Penal Code).

By and large, suffice it to say that under the Islamic rule, racism and xenophobia continued to flourish in Iran, just as it had been under the previous Pahlavi regime.

--Johnstevens5 14:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johnstevens, stop with your pan turk crap. All the Iranian azarbaijani's i have talked to who were there during the riots say that the protests are pro democracy anti IRI protests, not turk nationalist protests. He says that there are some pan turks starting a few protests here and there, but that they dont have mass support. have you talked to any iranian azarbaijani's or do you just sit at home and wa Gunaz tv and read the Ganom website?!

the mullahs in iran do not think about ethnicity, they only think about religion. they dont care what you are as long as you are shia. there is no persian chauvinism, there is shia chauvinism! khomeni promised a lot of things to a lot of people! he promised democracy to all iranians and federalism to all iranians, he lied! anyone who was against the fascist theocratic constitution was killed, INCLUDING PERSIANS! anyone in favor of democracy was killed! you are making it seem as though azari mullahs were killed because they were azari, you pan turks are crazy! persians have suffered more in general than any other ethnic group in iran. i garuntee you that the majority killed in the iran iraq war, the majority in the political prisons, and the majority tortured, have been persians! its not about ethnicity, its about whether you are for the regime or against it! you pan turks are full of it, you accuse us of things we never do, yet you take a blind i as to what is happening in your own countries. this is about azari origions and azari origions only, i suggest you stop spreading pan turk propaganda.Iranian Patriot 03:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support the suggestion by Johnstevens5. The late Ayatollah Shariatmadari has played a major role in Azerbaijanis uprising against the Islamic Rep. of Iran. This needs to be mentioned in the article. As an Azerbaijani from Iran, I am discussted by some of my fellow Iranians who try spreading misinformation within Wikipedia. User Iranian Patriot's commnets has showen the true calibre of these. Mehrdad 04:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on guys. Let me finish my rewrite of the article first. I think we can mention the uprising under the Azeris in Iran section, but first let me write up more of the article and we'll put it into the proper context and word it with neutrality in mind. Fair enough? Tombseye 20:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mehrdad, what are you talking about? All the Ayatollahs supported an Islamic regime, however, some were just more democratic then others. Many people were killed during the revolution, including many Ayatollahs and even Khomenei family members! What these Turks from outside Iran do is try to make it look like there is a big conspiracy going on. And please tell us, what are us other Iranians doing that is so offensive to Azari's?Iranian Patriot 22:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I mean look at this, its the exact attitude and sheer racism which is the cause of all these problems, Shariatmadari is raised and immediately the accusations of being a "Pan-Turkish" emerge.

How on Earth does wanting equal rights, wanting to be educated in your mother language, not having your identity stripped from you and not to be TOLD who and what you are make you a Pan-Turkist.

What's wrong with "Gunaz Tv" ITS THE ONLY CHANNEL TO BROADCAST IN THE NATIVE MOTHER TONGUE OF THE AZERI TURKS AND SHAMEFULLY ITS NOT EVEN BROADCASTED FROM IRAN!

Will you please take your head out of the sand, go and look at the pictures, there are video clips aswell, wake up and stop trying to shove this issue under the carpet.

Persians love Iran because their language is the official one, their culture and identity is encouraged, there are also the Turks of Iran they would love to feel as much a part of Iran but they are excluded due to these methods and then when anybody asks for some rights, to be allowed to be educated in their mother tongue or promote the Turks identity on Iran and its culture they are ACCUSED of being Pan-Turks! this is so ridiculous.

Why am I a Pan-Turk, what evidence do you have of this, just because I wish the beautiful language of these people to be recognised and embraced? because I would like to see the Turks of Iran have their identity promoted and embraced as being Iranian? Grand Ayatollah Kazem Shariatmadari wanted this IS HE A PAN-TURKIST aswell!

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO Ayatollah Shariatmadari IS?????

He was one of the Key reasons for the revolution! the people were with him! he wanted to give justice, equality, rights to all the people and to unite in Iran, an end to racism and prejeduce against the Torke which was so prevalent under the regime of the Shah Shariatmadari also wanted Iran to be a democracy if he had got his way Iran could have been in a much better situation today because he wasnt a power-obsessed extremist, he was the man for the people!

This person was a very influential figure and a major reason for the sucess of the revolution.

However, the way he was treated after was awfull and angered alot of people.

Why do you always blame Turks from Turkey? I don't see Turks from Turkey here writting but they are always blamed why is that? what have they done to you, this prejeduce STINKS, there are Turks in Iran Turks arn't only in TURKEY that's a lie and if you believe it shame on you.

Johnstevens5

This is exactly what im talking about. do you want to know why i called you a pan turk? well here it is:

1)you make accusations without knowing the facts

2)you admit you get your news from pan turk sources

3)you spread lies about iran which you think benefit turks

well let me enlighten you. In Iran, all ethnic groups are encouraged to preserve their culture and language (can we say the same for Rep. of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan? NO). In Iran, langauge has its own local newspapers, radio stations and tv programs (can we say the same for Rep. of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan? NO). in Iran, ethnic minorities have the right to learn their own language (can we say the same for Rep. of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan? NO). In Iran, there is no policy to make everyone feel as if they are one ethnic group (can we say the same for Rep. of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan? NO). Is Iran a perfect country, No. Iran is a dictatorship and all dictatorships are the same, they do whatever they can to stay in power, and they hold allegiances to no one, especially the regime in iran, which goes by religion and not ethnic background.

everything you say turks are asking for they already have! the azari langauge is recognised within iran and it is still widely spoken by azari's! THE CARTOON DEPICTING AZARI'S WAS DRAWN BY AN AZARI. many people who were not for the constitution that was written during the revolution were killed! many pro democracy ayatollahs were killed! many candidates for president were killed! stop your whining and your pan turk propaganda, and discuss the issue. you people are so insecure that you quickly revert to posting propaganda. i have azari's in my family, and i am as much connected with them as you are, so dont say i have no right to talk about these issues. you dont see any of us trying to discuss with you by posting articles and stuff about racism going on in turkey, uzbekistan, and Rep. Azerbaijan do you? You pan turks are ridiculous, you need to change your attitude and stop referring to propaganda for your informationIranian Patriot 02:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See this is exactly the reason why these debates get nowhere, your incapable of accepting that anything is wrong and pretend everybody is lying in a big conspiracy against Iran.

Wake up dude.

The language of over 25 million people of Iran is not taught, racist jokes about Azeri Turks are not simple humour they are disgusting racist jokes which the people do not like.

Why don't you call black guys here "stupid n*ggers" or donkeys etc well firstly because they are protected by law from this racism and two you'd get a punch in the face.

The language has to be taught, recognised, accepted, made an official or regiona; official language.

Were not talking about other countries, this has nothing to do with other countries were writting about Iran stick to the topic.

Why is it that the only way its possible to watch a Tv channel in the language is provided by outside Iran.

The picture is just in the newspaper is just another example of the racism, people don't like it understand this and they showed their anger on the streets so stop pretending this is only a few people.

Go and learn who Ayatollah Shariatmadari and apologise after for calling him such names because your accusations of him being a Pan-Turkist are RIDICULOUS, this isn't propoganda this is reality the reality you can hide away from and pretend doesn't exist in Iran but this isn't Iran, everyone can have their voice and you can't shut them up. This man was a very important figure and a key reason why the Azeri Turks revolted!

Again where is the proof of being Pan-Turk? you don't even know who Ayatollah Shariatmadariand yet you accuse me, what lies do I spread its you who spreads lies and invent your own version of events, which news agency is this so-callred Pan-Turk one huh?

Johnstevens5

do you not understand english? im calling you a pan turk, no one else! and for the last time, the racism you are talking about was by an azari to other azari's, that is like a black person in the USA calling another black person a n**ger and everyone going crazy.... also, like i told you , there is an azari language tv program for the azari's inside iran funded by the government, there are also newspapers and radio stations in the azari langauge (as well as in other languages within iran). also, the azari langauge is taught and preserved. this isnt turkey, this is iran, and iran, although the regime sucks, has always had tolerance towards others to an extent (depending on the person in power). you are a pan turk, you probably arent even reading my posts because evidently, you keep repeating yourself!

and its really funny that you should bring up the USA. have you ever seen the show Mind of Mencia or Chappelle show? those are shows based on generalisations and racism, yet they are highly successful in the USA, becase people know its all jokes and fun. so dont talk about things you dont know anything about.Iranian Patriot 21:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]