Talk:List of personal coats of arms of presidents of the United States

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving all to "List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of Foo" titles. A clearly articulated preference has been expressed to move away from "Armorial", and a well-reasoned argument has been made to indicate that these are the personal coats of arms of the subjects, rather than official instances accompanying their office. bd2412 T 17:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

– These titles more accurately reflect the contents of these lists. These are not articles about notable published rolls of arms; these are lists of coats of arms which in themselves represent rolls of arms (or armorials) compiled by Wikipedia editors. Thus, "List of coats of arms" is a more accurate indication of what may be found here. A similar group of moves was discussed at Talk:List of coats of arms of the House of Plantagenet#Requested move. Relisted. bd2412 T 21:22, 6 October 2013 (UTC) Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 04:21, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NEUTRAL - I note that these lists seem to be about the personal coats of arms of the individual men who were elected Presidents... as opposed to the official coat of arms of the office of the President (in the US... the official coat of arms of the office is the Seal of the President of the United States). If the lists do end up being retitled, I would suggest making that distinction clearer in the title... perhaps: List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of the United States, etc. would clarify. Blueboar (talk) 12:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would rather have 'armorial bearings' replace 'coats of arms'. Coat of arms is a complete heraldic achievement, shield, crest, supporters, motto etc. Not all of the individuals concerned have this. Furthermore 'armorial bearing' also sound less official and more personal. Other than that using the same rationale as the earlier moves, the new name is still better, so Agreed. Sodacan (talk) 03:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Fox-Davies (A Complete Guide to Heraldry, 1909, pp. 67-9) and Woodcock (The Oxford Guide to Heraldry, 1988, p. 50) agree that the term "coat of arms" refers to the markings upon the shield. "The coat of arms is the shield alone, and without it none of the rest of an achievement can exist" (Woodcock, 50). Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support. "Armorial" is barely English. 172.56.21.69 (talk) 02:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Regarding the next President

Clinton is unarmigerous (except insofar as she's entitled to bear her husband's arms), but Trump has been granted arms by Lyon King of Arms. I've emailed the Lyon Court to obtain the blazon, in case we need it after the 8th. Zacwill (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I haven't had a reply. Someone with Facebook or Twitter could try contacting the Court over those.

The "possible arms" now featured seem to in fact belong to Trump's golf company rather than the man himself, since in Scottish heraldry a sallet denotes a corporation. But Lyon could have also granted Trump personal arms. Zacwill (talk) 17:48, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Court have confirmed over Twitter that the arms belong to Trump International Golf Club Scotland Ltd, so I've replaced them by what seem to be Trump's assumed personal arms. Zacwill (talk) 11:59, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Trump's coat of arms "had been properly registered with the US patent and trademark office", so you could try contact them for an offical description. This article also states that the field is Argent, not Azure. On a French website (see here and here) the blazon is give as D'argent semé de 23 losanges surmontés d'une croix d'or, à deux chevrons accompagnés de trois lions issant (2,1) du même.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.100.1.30 (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Going by the image that blazon is very inaccurate. The lions aren't demi and the background is clearly ermine, not "lozenges surmounted by crosses". As to the colour of the field, I'm fairly sure a pale shade of azure is intended. No colours are specified in the trademark. Zacwill (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the next president…the "next president" is officially unknown until later today when Congress officially counts the Electoral votes. As of such, DJT shouldn't be on the list nor should HRC, but I am not going to bother reverting the edit seeing as its just a few hours. L3X1 (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Donald Trump

Looking through Google images it appears Trump might not have designated colours for his arms. The trademarked image is in black but looks like the ermine spots would be sable and the chevronels would be gules by the hatching. Trump Productions uses the arms, but they appear to have lions and chevronels in sable on a gold field. The carvings I have found are gold on argent for the most part, with the helm depicted either as silver or gold, with gold mantling doubled gold. In the end it may be best to omit the tinctures rather than promote vague or inaccurate information. 66.87.77.147 (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed since they were granted by the Lord Lyon in 2012 (following a dispute) it is fairly certain that the depicted tinctures are incorrect. The version Lord Lyon approved (which was different from the original assumed arms, which are what we have depicted here, even though he no longer uses them) is depicted at the end of this article: http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2012/01/17/donald-trump-at-last-awarded-the-scottish-coat-of-arms/. If anything I'd read the hatchings on the chevronels as Azure but the image quality is too low to tell (and the mullets and the crest aren't hatched anyway). --145.226.30.84 (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Vice Presidents of the United States which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:02, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Family name as "motto"

Including the family name in a scroll at the bottom where the heraldic motto would usually go is very typical of the output of heraldic "bucket shops", and so is a warning sign to those in the know... AnonMoos (talk) 08:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trump arms

If I'm not mistaken, the Trump arms are the corporate arms of the Trump Organization, not the personal arms of Donald Trump. Should they be included here? Chetsford (talk) 20:48, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They haven't been listed though they are added periodically. I've not seen evidence of use by trump as an individual — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.219.36.184 (talk) 11:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

section titles

The subheadings were recently changed from Arms of the presidents in the Nth century to Nth-century arms of presidents, which I think is the opposite of an improvement. I would normally read "Nth-century arms" to mean arms created in the respective period, and I do not assume that all of these were! The old titles, if we must have sections at all, were clear and unambiguous. Why change them? —Tamfang (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree... AnonMoos (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Franklin D. Roosevelt Coat of Arms

Is there any reason why FDR's coat of arms is not showing? Is there no copyright-free image or is it an error? ❤History Theorist❤ 16:39, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Donald J. Trump

Someone added the Trump Coat of Arms and argued that according to US Heraldic laws, he uses them, so they are his official arms. He indeed uses them, and they keep being removed, so I will add it back because he considers them to be his.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnadHzmrp7U&t=96s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZq3iCn2y74&t=140s JAMAMBTGE (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are no personal "U.S. heraldic laws"; the only official government body, the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry doesn't deal with individuals at all. That said, arms which Trump claims can certainly be added to this article, IF we have a reliable source that Trump claims them. AnonMoos (talk) 20:53, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I the two videos linked above I would consider reliable sources. JAMAMBTGE (talk) 04:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if a couple of YouTube videos showing the Davies arms on Trump's plane and helicopter are enough to establish that Trump "considers them to be his [personal arms]". The article already notes that the Trump Organization has made use of the Davies arms – I think this is sufficient. Another problem with your edit is that the image shows the Davies arms while the blazon describes the arms granted by the Lord Lyon to Trump International Golf Club Scotland Ltd, which are completely different. This is in addition to the fact that Trump will not take office until next year and cannot yet be described as the "47th president". Zacwill (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, many of the founding fathers were not granted Coat of Arms by a foreign government but used them, which are considered theirs. The two videos show President Trump using the coats of arms in a personal matter. Additionally, I apologize for the description that is my mistake. Lastly, According to your profile, it seems as if you are from the United Kingdom, and in the United States, he is considered the 47th President even though he has not yet taken office.

Here is the Miami Herald referencing the Coat of Arm's at Trump's : https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article153198454.html JAMAMBTGE (talk) 03:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]