Talk:Anthony Sawoniuk

Untitled

Did he gain British citizenship? If so, when? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 09:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

The available sources show that Sawoniuk was born in Poland to a Polish mother. I can not find any sources which mention the nationality of his father. However the sources do state that his parents were not married. In that case Sawoniuk would have acquired his citizenship from his mother (see the Polish citizenship law of 1920). As far as I can tell, Sawoniuk never lived in Belarus: the place were he lived was part of Poland until 1939, a de facto part of the USSR from 1939 to 1941 (but most certainly not de jure part of the USSR), and then either a de facto part of Reichskommissariat Ostland or a de facto part of Großdeutschland (my assumption would be the former but some sources about it would be good). He did join a Belarussian Waffen SS unit but Poles had no Polish Waffen SS unit to join. I am unable to find any information as to when he acquired British citizenship. Although he almost certainly did acquire such, should we refer to him as British without any sources confirming his British citizenship?Varsovian (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't show you his passport, but like you said I think it is safe to say he became a British citizen, many Poles who managed to get out of soon-to-be-communist Poland settled in England and got British citizenship after the war. In my opinion he would/should be called a "British citizen" not "British" because it may unnecessarily confuse readers. It's not really surprising that he joined one of the Belorussian SS units, the Belorussian SS Division itself was formed from the remnants of the 30th Waffen Grenadier (2nd Russian) division, which was formed from the RONA which was itself lead by a pole named Bronislav Kaminski - made up mainly of Ukrainians, Russians, and Belorussians plus a few Polish collaborators.Zantorzi (talk) 00:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it would be safe to say that he became a British citizen but until we have a WP:RS which confirms that he did, we can't say here that he did. Careful what you say about Poles and the SS: last time I mentioned that Poles served in the SS an editor in Poland filed a Wikiquette alert about me!

According to Bronislav Kaminski - he had a Polish father, German mother and was a Soviet citizen. It's OR to call him Polish. What source confirms Polish collaborators in RONA?Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Please note that (as far as I can see from the available sources) Sawoniuk did not serve in RONA. Varsovian (talk) 07:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Please explain it to Zantorzi. This discussion is about Anthony Sawoniuk Xx236 (talk) 09:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

There is now a source stating that Sawoniuk described himself as Polish. Varsovian (talk) 16:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that we now have sources stating that the subject was Polish-born, born to a Polish mother and an unknown father (which makes him a Polish citizen), had a Polish birth certificate, fought in the Polish army and even described himself as Polish but a certain editor wants to remove the fact that the subject was a Pole. Varsovian (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not for us to make deductions like that. We follow the sources, which very consistently don't ascribe him any nationality. Presumably he was a Polish citizen, but as we've repeated over and over again, citizenship (particularly in that part of the world at that time) has little to do with nationality. --Kotniski (talk) 17:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It says in the article that he joined the Polish corps of the British army. This was something which happened with a number of soldiers from the Ukrainian "Galician" SS who surrendered in April 1945 in Italy, where the Polishcorps was. A number of men with Polish birth certificates were "absorbed" into the POlish corps and then headed back to UK where they gained UK citizenship. There was a scandal a few years ago about a list of such people, lnown as the Rimini List . (188.146.35.84 (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2018 (UTC))

Notable ignorant source

"Sawoniuk, nicknamed Andrusha, and his half-brother, Nikolai" - Andrusha and Nikolai aren't Polish names. Polish boys are named Andrzej and Mikołaj. British press is known to ignore Polish matters, to inform about Polish deathcamps and other revelations. STop quoting such "reliable" sources.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

If you consider the British press not to be a reliable source, please take that to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Varsovian (talk) 09:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Polish citizenship of Sawoniuk

We don't discuss why thousands of people described in this Wikipedia had Polish citizenship. Why Anthony Sawoniuk deserves such discussion based on an ignorant article? Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

That sentence was added for two reasons: a minority of the sources refer to him being "from Belarus". While that is true now, at the time of his birth the place of his birth was very much in Poland. Also, in the past certain editors have claimed that Sawoniuk was Belarussian rather than Polish. Varsovian (talk) 10:02, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Anton/Andrej?

Any explanation for the two names? The Belarusian version of the article says "сапраўднае імя Андрэй Саванюк" - I presume "сапраўднае" means "former"?--Kotniski (talk) 14:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Sawoniuk's mother

So far only one source claims that the nationality of Sawoniuk's mother is Polish. The article should reflect this. I request user:Varsovian stops edit warring to remove that from article and discusses his objections first here.  Dr. Loosmark  14:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The article gives the source for his mother's nationality, people can see that there is a source and click it if they want to. Varsovian (talk) 15:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Since the nationality of his mother is far from certain the article has to reflect that. The problem is not that (or if) "there is a source" but rather that there is a single source. A newspaper at that. It is common usage on wikipedia in that cases to use the expression: "according to source x y" rather than to expect people to "click on source".  Dr. Loosmark  15:28, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you please now add to the article the fact that there is only a single Polish source which says Sawoniuk was in the Belorussian Blue Police. Or would you prefer me to do it? Varsovian (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Belarussian nationality?

Is there any evidence that the subject had Belarussian nationality? I have seen none and see none in the sources. Has the article just been vandalised? Does a certain editor want to improve this article or just change it so fact that the subject was Polish is either minimised or not mentioned at all? Varsovian (talk) 17:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm trying to be constructive by not simply reverting. But the area he came from is frequently described as Belarus, he has a Belarusian name and childhood nickname (which implies he was raised as a Belarusian), so if we're going to pull nationalities out of the hat, we may as well do so without favouring one side over the other. (But I'd prefer just to drop the nationality description altogether, as we should follow sources in such matters.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The sources say that the subject was Polish-born[1], born to a Polish mother [2] and an unknown father[3], had a Polish birth certificate[4], fought in the Polish army[5] and described himself as Polish[6]. So let's follow what the sources say: he was Polish. Or do you have any sources at all about his supposed Belarussian nationality? Varsovian (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Exactly the same number that we have for his supposed Polish nationality. Zero. See you tomorrow.--Kotniski (talk) 18:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Wrong: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/feb/09/nickhopkins "Polish-born". Goodbye. Varsovian (talk) 18:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok here we go: [7] "Belarusian policeman", [8] "an immigrant from Belarus", and this source states precisely that he was in the "Belarusian police" which is not yet in the article [9].  Dr. Loosmark  18:22, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you be so kind as to explain how he could be an immigrant from a country which did not exist at the time he left it? I also note that the Polish source you provide says "Sawoniuk, który w czasie okupacji służył w granatowej policji białoruskiej,". That actually translates as "Sawoniuk, who during the occupation, served in the Blue police in Belarus". How unfortunate that you made that little mistake when translating that fragment of text. Blue Police states "The official name of the organization was Polish Police of the General Government". Don't worry, I'll put into the article the fact that he served in the Blue Police and not the Belarussian Police as your mistaken translation asserts. Varsovian (talk) 18:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time to "explain" you the source, to qoute you one of your favorite lines "if you have problems with a source please take it to WP:RSN". As for your translation, nope, "w granatowej policji białoruskiej" means in the Belarusian blue police. And apparently you have no idea that a Belarusian Police existed.  Dr. Loosmark  19:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, googling "Belarusian Blue Police" produces zero results. How odd. Varsovian (talk) 19:36, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

And googling "granatowej policji białoruskiej" brings up precisely four links: all to that same article. Odder and odder. Varsovian (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

This source has him in the Schutzmannschaft and those were not 'Blue Police' of either nationality. Given that there is a conflict between the two sources, I suggest we go back to just "a policeman" or perhaps "a member of the local Nazi-backed police". Varsovian (talk) 19:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

All right, if passing references in newspapers are accepted as proof of nationality, this (and from the same paper, this) have him as a Belarussian. Though personally I wouldn't pay too much attention to any of this sort of thing - the fact that the great majority of articles about him don't state a nationality (when generally speaking journalists like to use such labels) implies to me that we shouldn't either (as with Compernicus et al). Anyway, is it possible to stop arguing about this side matter and work on improving the article? We seem to have got a lot of facts now, but they need to be put into logical order a bit. (For a start, can we lose the Polish and Belarusian representations of his name in the lead? Are they sourced to anywhere? And can we have at least one more section heading so it's not all under "Biography"?) --Kotniski (talk) 07:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting sources. One refers to him killing "Belorussian Jews", how they could be members of a nation which did not exist until some 50 years after their death is an point which we could discuss at length. The other calls him Belorussian and has him under a headline about "Ukrainian War Criminals", just as long as nobody calls him 'Polish', eh? Given that you seem to wish to solve the debate about whether a Polish-born man who described himself as Polish should be described here as Polish or another nationality by simply removing references to his nationality, will you be heading over to the Chopin article to remove references to his nationality? Varsovian (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Well no, because we have no problem with his nationality (sources right left and centre tell us what it was). Your theory that no-one could have been Belorussian before Belarus became an independent state (presumably that means there are currently no Englishmen or Scots) is the most outrageous nonsense. I'm not going to answer your absurdities about nationality any more - you seem intelligent enough to know how utterly stupid they are, and we all know what your aim is here, so rational and constructive discourse with you on this topic is simply made impossible.--Kotniski (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, multiple sources tell us that Chopin was Polish-French but for some reason our article calls him "Polish". Why might that be? Varsovian (talk) 11:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you please stop comparing Chopin with a Nazi collaborator and war criminal? They lived in totally different eras and have nothing in common.  Dr. Loosmark  11:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm actually contrasting Chopin to Sawoniuk. They were both born in Poland to Polish mothers and later applied for and received passports from the countries which they then living in. However, to some people Chopin is purely Polish (and not Polish-French) while Sawoniuk is not at all Polish. Interesting difference, isn't it? Varsovian (talk) 11:51, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I won't enter into the many differences between the two of them (suffice is to say that every source considers Chopin as Polish while the situation with Sawoniuk is much more uncertain and most sources don't even state his nationality at all). Anyway you have made your opinion clear and there is no point to constantly mention the great composer in a context of a discussion on a war criminal.  Dr. Loosmark  12:02, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Polish-British?

It seems to me that we have sufficient sources to state that Sawoniuk was Polish (i.e. we have sources confirming that he described himself as Polish and that he was Polish-born, in Poland, to a Polish mother and an unknown father). I would in no way be opposed to the article mentioning that Polish sources state Sawoniuk was ethnically Belorussian (indeed I have included similar information in the article). We also have sources (the BBC and The Independent) which state that Sawoniuk became a British citizen.
WP:MOSBIO states that "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable." I submit that Sawoniuk is notable both for his participation in the holocaust (particularly given that Poles who took part are far far rarer than the murderous collaborators from places such as Lithuania or Ukraine) and for his conviction under British war crimes law. He was a Polish citizen at the time he participated in the holocaust. He was a British citizen when he was convicted under British war crimes law. I submit that he would be correctly described as "Polish-British" in the opening sentence.
Further, WP:MOSBIO states "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." I fail to see how the Belorussian ethnicity which some sources attribute to Sawoniuk is relevant to his notability; therefore his disputed ethnicity should not be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Varsovian (talk) 12:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Just provide a source that says he was "Polish-British". If you can't, then we shouldn't say it. (And as I've said before, he was probably a Soviet citizen at the time of his crimes - but in the absence of sources, we can't say one way or the other. Just stop making things up or deducing things, and write what the sources say.)--Kotniski (talk) 13:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

According to the sources, Sawoniuk described himself as Polish. He was also born a Polish citizen (i.e. Polish-born). He was also a British citizen. So he was "Polish British", just as the opening sentence now says. If you have any sources which state Sawoniuk was a Soviet citizen at the time he committed his crimes, please produce it. I request that you do not make any further accusations of bad faith editing similar to the one in the post above ([10]) where you accuse me of "making things up". Varsovian (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

He "described himself as Polish"? So a war criminal is now a reliable source? He was born a Polish citizen (says who? "Polish-born" probably means "born in Poland"). He was a British citizen (yes, but later, not when he was a Nazi collaborator, so any statement that he was a "...British... collaborator" is misleading). So no, your deduction (even if we're allowed to make deductions of that sort) is not valid. Again, please source your claim that he was "Polish-British" (or even "Polish"), or remove it.--Kotniski (talk) 13:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

No, Polish-born does not mean the same as 'born in Poland'. Simply being born in Poland does not now and did not in 1921 make a person Polish. Please do not interpret what the source says, it says what it says: "Polish-born". The source which states that Sawoniuk "described himself as Polish" is writing about the pre-war situation in his hometown and at that point Sawoniuk was not a war criminal. I agree with your point that Sawoniuk was not a "...British... collaborator" but Sawoniuk is notable not only because he was a Nazi collaborator (there are regrettably far too many of them for each to have a WP article): he is also notable because he was convicted of war crimes by a British court; at the time he was convicted he was a British citizen so, as per WP:MOSBIO, the opening sentence needs to say "Polish British". No I won't source the claim that he was "Polish-British": the wording of the article which I suggest does not claim he is "Polish-British". Varsovian (talk) 14:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

So why oh why did you change the stable version, apparently acceptable to everyone, that said what the source said ("Polish-born") without any interpretation, and introduced this new unsourced label "Polish British"? We already say later in the lead that he became a British citizen. (And I doubt we can be sure what time the journalist was talking about when he said that S. described himself as Polish - how would anyone know how he described himself back then before the war? Highly likely it refers to later times when it was to his advantage to "pose" as a Pole, as one source put it.)--Kotniski (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Issues

1. Kotniski is right - you need a source which describes him as "Polish-British", otherwise this is just more OR.

2. It is not true that only "Polish sources" describe him as "Belarussian". He is described as such in English sources given above. Hence this is a (perhaps deliberate, perhaps not) misrepresentation of sources.

3. The MOS guideline is intended to apply to contemporary people, not historical ones. Nationality is a modern concept and to pretend that the MOS guideline would apply to people who lived in a time when nationality was much more fluid or non existent is incorrect. There's no reason to insist on this guideline here either.

4. If you are going to insist on nationality then in this particular case it makes sense to also include ethnicity since the two don't correspond to each other - this is standard practice in such cases.

However, I would just follow the practice of the vast, majority, overwhelmingly large, pretty much all but a few, sources here and simply skip any discussion of the nationality/ethnicity issue, particularly because it's unclear.radek (talk) 22:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this attempt to force nationality into the lead is making it read awkwardly and not really conveying any useful well-sourced information. But if we remove the nationality descriptors (as I think we should), then we should also put back the information as to where his home town is/was, since otherwise the reader (of the lead) has no idea what part of the world we're talking about, and this is certainly fundamental information.--Kotniski (talk) 06:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

1. I don’t describe him as “Polish-British”.

2. British sources describe him as being Polish (Polish-born to a Polish mother and unknown father).

3. Sawoniuk died five years ago: he is not a ‘historical’ person, he is from modern times.

4. WP:MOSBIO says nationality should be included and states "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Could you perhaps outline how the Belorussian ethnicity which some sources attribute to Sawoniuk is relevant to his notability? And provide a source which states that he was “ethnically Belorussian”? Thanks.

It was you who put "Polish British" into the article (despite its being unsourced, unclear and misleading, for reasons already stated). I don't think we've yet seen a British source that describes him as Polish. And I'm not sure MOSBIO is any help here - it obviously wasn't written with such "unusual" cases in mind; anyway, I don't think there's any clear dividing line between nationality and ethnicity here - we should follow general principles and describe him as the sources do, which as Radek says, is mostly not to ascribe him a nationality (but if you insist, then we should do it by reporting what the various sources say). --Kotniski (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

This source describes him as "Polish-born" (being born in Poland is not the same as being born Polish). There are other sources which confirm he took British citizenship (despite Polish sources continuing to call him Belorussian after his death). He was Polish, he was British: he was Polish British. As for the discussion about ethnicity, do we have any sources at all which deal with his ethnicity? (Other than the ones about the rumour that his father was Jewish. It would be almost amusing to see a man born Polish to a Polish mother and a Jewish father being described as Belorussian.) Varsovian (talk) 16:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

We really have no idea what that journalist meant by "Polish-born" - I assume it meant born within what was then Poland, we have no reason to deduce anything else from that one brief phrase. Like I've said before, no source describes him as Polish British, and to say he was a "Polish British collaborator" is highly misleading - he was not the least bit British when he collaborated. There are sources that say he was Belarussian - about as reliable (or not) as the one(s?) that say(s) his mother was Polish. It's clear to me that we're not fairly representing the sources by trying to give nationality information in the lead of this article; however we would be giving the reader very pertinent information by saying where the town is that he came from and committed his crimes in (pre-war Poland, modern Belarus). Regardless of what well-meaning general advice you may find on certain guideline pages, do you really dispute that this change would make this particular article better?--Kotniski (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Remove universal jurisdiction

Removed sentence on universal jurisdiction. The defendant was a British citizen, and trying one's citizens for crimes performed overseas is not an example of universal jurisdiction. It doesn't happen much in countries with common law traditions, but it's standard in some countries with continental traditions.

Roadrunner (talk) 09:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

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