Talk:Anna Anachoutlou

Anna Anachoutlou has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 23, 2022	Good article nominee	Listed

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 4, 2017, September 4, 2018, September 4, 2020, and September 4, 2022.

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Why is there no mention of her Cuman origins?

Her mother was a Cuman from Georgia, not a Georgian. Djiadjak is a Cuman name meaning "flower" which is cognate to Turkish word çiçek and Khazarian word tzitzak. Anachoutlou is ana + kutlu which means mother + holy/blessed in Turkic languages.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Anna Anachoutlou/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 09:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
did some tweaks and copyedits.

to the lands of the Laz people, the region of Limnia, can you add where these were, in relation to Trebizond?

added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
The EHW also has an article with some additional details/interpretations (see below). It also provides a list of possible additional sources, although many of them will likely be inaccessible (being in Greek or published only in Greece).

A plagiarism spotcheck turned up fine, and Finlay and Miller are PD due to their age

Why so much reliance on Finlay rather than Miller? I would expect it the other way round, since Byzantine scholarship was definitely in its infancy when Finlay wrote.

Much of the Miller content is from the article before I expanded it since I couldn't find an accessible version of Miller or could only partly access it (cannot remember which). Would have done it the other way around otherwise. Should I try to find a copy and address this? Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, good question. I would definitely recommend looking up Miller. I also saw that I happen to have Alexios Savvides' book on the history of Trebizond available, and a copy of Karpov's 2007 book (in Russian). I will look what I can find there. Constantine ✍ 10:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Savvides 2009 confirms that the 1341 raid was by the Ak Koyunlu (p. 97), retells the story of Anna's rise to power and her imprisonment of Michael (pp. 98-99), and then adds that at the same time (ca. August 1342) the Ak Koyunlu raided anew, but were defeated (p. 99). The fall of Anna and the rise of John III and his purges is then briefly treated (p. 99). His treatment is relatively less detailed, but confirms the sequence of events (not that that was much in doubt). Constantine ✍ 10:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Karpov 2007:

pp. 174-6: deals with Anna's reign fairly briefly. Mostly a summary of what is in the article, with some additions: According to Gregoras, some senators opposed to Irene preferred raising one of Basil's illegitimate sons to the throne and rule through him as a puppet (pp. 174-175). John and his supporters sailed from Constantinople on 17 August, and arrived at Trebizond ten days later (p. 175).

p. 208: close religious ties btw Jerusalem and Trebizond, including the restoration, during Anna's reign, of the Jerusalem monastery of St. Euphemius

p. 407: referencing the studies of Michel Kuršanskis, the Turkish names of Anna and her siblings were apparently inspired by contemporary Georgian practice, influenced by the fact that Georgia was under Mongol suzerainty.

p. 461: a monk Gerasimos, of the Jerusalem monastery of St. Euphemius, wrote a remembrance on Anna in 1344.

Added the content above from Savvides and Karpov; I'll see if I can track down a readable copy of Miller somewhere. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: I've tried to search for a copy of Miller I could read (either a scanned one or a physical one I could order) but it's not looking to good. Don't know why it's so hard to track down. It's up to you whether the reliance on Finlay is grounds for failing the nomination. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:12, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ichthyovenator: No, it is not. Finlay is still a reliable scholar, and the information can be corroborated by the other sources. I will have a read-through as soon as I can, and then likely pass this. It could be an obstacle for FA, however. Constantine ✍ 12:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Add location to Treadgold, and please verify that Kennedy's location is indeed Cambridge and not Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Added location and it is indeed Cambridge, Massachusetts. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At Irene as a "Constantinopolitan stranger", where does that quotation come from? If it is Finlay, please note that.

Noted. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It covers the topic quite well. However, there are some details missing and clear discrepancies with the article in the EHW, which I recommend to be included here.

I've been to the EHW before but I'd managed to miss that there was additional content if you click the links in the right sidebar (I thought it was just made up of very brief entries 🙃). If I add content from the EHW should I cite the EHW or check the sources that the EHW cites? Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Always cite where you got the information from, even if they reference other sources. If you want to quote the original source, do so by intermediary ('as X is quoted in Y'). Constantine ✍ 10:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a lot of the missing content from the EHW and corrected some discrepancies. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

small monastery dedicated to Saint Euthymius the Great the PLP suggests it may have been in Jerusalem, and the EHW has Anna being a nun in this monastery in Jerusalem. The EHW has a frustrating tendency to not include inline citations, but at least the possible location of the monastery should be included.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per the EHW, identify the Turkish raiders as Türkmen of Amida (I assume these are the Aq Qoyunlu), and add Anna's victory over them in August 1342.

Identified them as the Aq Qoyunlu with a citation to Savvides and added their second raid and defeat. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name and link the leaders of the Scholarioi, even if for the moment they are WP:REDLINKs.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

I'm just quickly going to comment on that this article is quite reliant on some older sources (Finlay and Miller) but I could not find anything more recent that treats the Empire of Trebizond at the same level of detail and I could not find any recent criticism that would render Finlay or Miller unreliable (but I'll leave assessing this up to you since you're quite knowledgeable of the source material). Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: sorry for the delay, but I've now had time to look the article over a bit more thoroughly. The article is fairly complete, but I have a few comments, suggestions and questions. Oh, and a happy new year to you and your loved ones! :) Constantine ✍ 13:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: No worries! I will try to get through this in the coming days. A happy new year to you and your loved ones as well! :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: I've read through a couple of times, looks good. Passing now, only one question: Treadgold is no longer used. Is this deliberate? Then I would remove him from the article. Constantine ✍ 12:54, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Thank you! Yes, it's deliberate since the wording didn't appear to match the actual chronology of events. I've removed the source. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: Fine by me. Congratulations and thanks once more on writing such a great article on a very neglected figure! Cheers, Constantine ✍ 13:13, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]