Talk:Andreas Miaoulis

"Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities"

This source is definitely what would be considered a Questionable source, firstly it is not a historical book, the editor is also not a historian, poor fact checking, unsubstantiated claims, it is a reference book, and the sources it claims to use I have seen nothing of Miaoulis' family history. A far better source going into the family history of Miaoulis exclusively is needed. Removed for now waiting for dispute. SJCAmerican (talk) 08:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

The source was not reliable, however the information itself (that he was an Arvanite like his fellow countrymen from the Saronic Islands) is not disputed, is it?--Phso2 (talk) 23:44, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

This is considering that everyone was an Arvanite from the saronic islands? Yes then it is disputed, Also Miaoulis family was from Eurobea despite settling in Hydra, I know Hydra was a center for Arvanites but as I mentioned his family was not from there, and to base him being an Avranite on his birthplace alone is dubious at best, I have not seen any information regarding Miaoulis being an Arvanite. I have been looking for more information on this and have not found anything as of yet, It is very possible as his family did settle in Hydra which has a very substantial Arvanite population, I would not be against this information being re-added, but before that there needs to be a more reliable source. Perhaps some Greek sources have more detailed information, until then I think it is best to omit SJCAmerican (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Most Greek sources, including his own son, state he was born on Hydra. Euboea (another Arvanite center) is the place of origin of his family centuries ago. Contemporary sources describe the Saronic islands and southern Argolis as inhabited by Albanian-speaking Greeks (British philhellene Gordon, some missionary publication among others examples), Vokos is considered an Arvanitic family name ([1]), so there is no rational reason to assume Miaoulis family should be different from the other Hydriots, and even E. Venizelos, in a 1919 memorandum, took as an argument (for his point that Greece was entitled to annex areas with Albanian-speaking people) that "Botsaris and Miaoulis were Albanian" ([2]), which doesn't mean that they were "Albanian" in the national sense, but "Albanian-speakers-with-a-Greek-national-consciousness", just as people from Alsace were deemed "Germanic-speakers-with-a-French-national-consciousness" (these are the post-1st war-conferences when France recovered Germanic-speaking French territories).

However, since Arvanites didn't fit the "One nation one language one country" structure, authors don't insist on their linguistic particularism and since they are more or less fully accultured nowadays, what seemed casual observation for 19th century people is now considered "disputed".--Phso2 (talk) 22:23, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Again place of origin isn't the same as descent, while these were Arvanite centers, someone coming from one of these places doesn't necessarily make them an Avranite, the same way for instance there are Albanians who aren't born in what is considered "Albanian communities", and Venizelos is not an accredited source either, as I said what you are saying makes sense, and it's a likely possibility he was an Arvanite we should have accredited sources for it on Wikipedia. So unless we have details of Miaoulis specifically it can still be considered disputed or at least warrant skepticism of validity, alternatively as you mentioned Hydra was an Arvanite community and we have sources for that so perhaps we can instead say "He was born on Hydra, an Arvanite community" or something similar. How would you feel with this? SJCAmerican (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

You are right that "place of origin" doesn't necessarily mean "descent". However in this case we have someone who bears an Arvanite family name (Vokos), hails from an overwhelming Arvanite populated place, who is called an Arvanite by the Prime Minister of his country, and about which no source tells he may be different from his fellow Hydriots (I mean, no author says his family may have a different background than the other prominent Hydriot shipping families, ie Arvanite), therefore assuming that he was not an Arvanite seems rather overcautious : it is more than a "likely possibility" since the body of evidences supports it.

Anyway, this is not a very important matter (except for nationalist discourses) so "born on Hydra, an Arvanite community" is fine for me.--Phso2 (talk) 16:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand and that assumption is probably correct, but assumptions are not really what we should base wikipedia articles on, surnames as well can be adopted for whatever reason, perhaps he was only of partial arvanite decedent, best to omit assumptions let alone present them as facts SJCAmerican (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2018 (UTC)