Talk:André Miele

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Andre Miele → André Miele – There was no consensus regarding the use of diacritics, so this article should use the diacritics until a consensus is reached. See also: Talk:Mate Pavić.

PL Alvarez ^Talk, 08:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - As per the ATP and ITF tennis organizations, the player's English sourced name is Andre Miele. See also Talk:Marek Zidlicky and Talk:Galina Fokina. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no discussion on diacritics on this talk page, so nominator's rationale is superfluous, so this move is missing a rationale. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 06:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: The proposed page move is contrary to the established Wiki-policies of WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RS. Dolovis (talk) 03:36, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

pt.Interwiki

• Added (1) pt.wp, (2) WP Brazil tag, (3) .br WP:RS, (4) BLP own website
• Secondly, some comments: This is a WP:BLP, accuracy should be paramount. Note also that (1) Zidlicky is primarily notable for playing in USA, Fokina is cyrillic. (2) WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RS are miscited in above discussion - please look at the diacritics used in examples. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:39, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: all moved. Favonian (talk) 17:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

---

• Andre Miele → André Miele
• Julio Goes → Julio Góes
• Marcio Carlsson → Márcio Carlsson
• Marcio Torres → Márcio Torres

– (i) en.wikipedia gives category:Brazilian people full Portuguese-language names even if English-language sports websites do not represent the accents per WP:IRS "the best such sources." (ii) Wikipedia:Article titles "... to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns.." (iii) WP:UE "Søren Kierkegaard". (iv) diacritics per WP:USEENGLISH & WP:DIACRITICS "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich" (v) WP:MOSPN "English Wikipedia normally retains these special characters... Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős is spelt with the double acute accent" -- (vi) Specifics: entrevista André Miele "Eleito em 2003 o melhor juvenil do Brasil" MOS "consistency" with other en.wp Andrés from André Hazes, Dutch folk singer to André Previn, American conductor. Que fim levou? (whatever happened to?) Julio Góes ex-tenista consistency with other surname Góes, Fabio Góes Brazilian singer. The two Márcios: "Que fim levou? (what's he doing now?) Márcio Carlsson and entrevista Márcio Torres, MOS consistency with en.wp Márcios and accent-equipped sources such as Brazilian novelist Márcio Souza in NY Times = Márcio Souza in en.wp. (vii) MOS consistency with English diacritic names, Renée Geyer Australian singer, Chloë Sevigny American actress, Zoë Ball UK TV presenter, Charlotte Brontë Venezuelan judoka ;) In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - per tennis project, English sources, ITF, ATP. This was just done last November. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:58, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

  Why does Wikipedia owe fealty to the ITF et al? have you perused WP:OFFICIALNAMES? —  AjaxSmack  02:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  I have. "In many cases, the official name will be the best choice"... the official registered name is noteworthy as is the press and ATP and most other English sources. We look at them all to come to a decision, or at least I do. You could also ask why we look at a foreign spelling that's not really used in common English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

  And in many cases it is not the best choice. This is an encyclopedia, not a computer registry. I am still curious as to why the ITF, an outfit that conducts international tennis tournaments, should govern encyclopedic usage at Wikipedia. —  AjaxSmack  17:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS as wikiwide consensus overrules WikiProject consensus. See also WT:TENNISNAMES Agathoclea (talk) 07:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support; more accurate names. I cannot understand why some editors would like us to use the ITF as a benchmark of proper spelling when it is known that the ITF systematically strips diacritics from players' actual names. bobrayner (talk) 11:03, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

  It is one of the sources, not the only source. And a player must register with the ITF and choose a non-diacritic spelling that they want. Between that and other English sources we can form an opinion on what the common English spelling is and use it for a title per policy. The names in the lead would then be a different matter. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The ITF appears to displays player's surnames in all caps, eg, "Tomas BERDYCH",[1] but Wikipedia is not obliged to accept this convention any more than we are obliged to accept stripping of diacritics. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom who sums it up better than I ever have. -DJSasso (talk) 13:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removing duplicate name in lead

As disruptive editing counter Talk:Vizcaíno and WT:TENNISNAMES RfC. This is clearly WP:POINTY editing and counter the overwhelming consensus of the RM above to let a Brazilian have a Brazilian name. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverted disruptive editing based on administrative help in previous mediation. Re-tweaked wording and sourced properly to the governing bodies of the sport. He has a Brazilian name but also has a legitimate well-used alternate spelling as per sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:27, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Fyunck, it's unfortunate that you're taking previous intervention (Joe Decker) on Talk:Facundo Argüello (tennis) as a permanent license to push these "André professionally known as Andre" type leads when guidelines WP:MOSBIO, not only no other en.wp BLPs do this, but also the more prominent tennis BLPs such as Björn Borg don't do this. If you tried doing this to a non-foreigner bio such as André Previn you would almost certainly be in hot water. Adding sport webpages which don't spell Björn Borg accurately such as "Core Tennis info". Retrieved 2013-04-16. ^ "ITF bio spelling". Retrieved 2013-04-16. ^ "ATP bio spelling". Retrieved 2013-04-16. achieves nothing since these sources fail WP:RS Context matters - The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:40, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Having said that, your new version "André Miele ...(also spelled Andre Miele[1][2][3])," is at least less bad than the original "professionally" which implied that playing tennis outside anglophone countries isn't playing professionally. How would you feel about "(also spelled Andre Miele on websites that don't use accents [1][2][3])" seeing as that would be more accurate. At all times with BLPs we are supposed to put the interest of accuracy regarding living people first:

WP:BLP Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page.[1] Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies:

• Neutral point of view (NPOV)
• Verifiability (V)
• No original research (NOR)

We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[2] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.

You need to ask yourself, does your use of these sports websites and the claim that this Brazilian living person's name is also spelled without the Brazilian accent complying with the spirit of "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources." ? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)