Talk:American fiddle

Many fine musicians have not yet been properly notated in this article!

The first time I wrote on music was for Victoria Music around 2005 and I learned that it is impossible to write about music without leaving somebody out, not giving someone the full attention and credit they are due or putting someone in a greater limelight than other more worthy individuals. I have paid dearly to learn this but as yet have not found the antidote. Shakespeare said hell hath no fury greater than a scorned woman, but I am convinced that something must have been lost in translation because undoubtedly the original manuscript undoubtedly would have read that hell hath no fury greater than that of a musician who has not received their due on Wikipedia. But, come to think of it, they did not have Wikipedia in those days...anyway, I apologize in advance to the many fine musicians who have not been properly noted in these prelilminary versions of the article and invite anyone who knows better to edit boldly and enter any missing information or corrections. Thank you in advance....GeoBard^Rap 22:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

See List_of_fiddlers#American. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Canada and Mexico are part of North America too

Anyone planning to include things like Métis fiddling, Cape Breton fiddling, or the use of the violin in Mexican folkloric genres here, or will the page remain focused on US fiddling? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Interesting point. However, existing English language usage of the word "American" in that particular context refers to fiddle music in the USA. If informed opinion were to consense that there is a need for coverage of the broader topic you refer to it would be consistent with WP policy to name it accordingly, ie., North American fiddling. However, that would constitute OR. No one writes about Mexican and Canadian styles under the rubric "American fiddle". Google, check the racks at the music store.

Among the options if you want to push the point would be creation of some kind of disambig hatnote or disambig page. Also, speaking of the global/multi-culturalist perspective, we left out Hawaii fiddle music which needs to be considered not neccesarily in a fiddle-centric context. This is not sarcastic; there is such a thing as Jawaican music and if you want to do the research I would probably consider Hawaii fiddle to be part of American fiddle but I know Hawaiins who would not. Personally, I don't have a dog in that fight. But Mexican mariachi style music is not "American music" in the sense in which the word "American" is used among practicing musicians. If you find citations indicating that musicologists use the terminology to include the whole continent, we can discuss this further otherwise you are raising personal POV with no citation which is a nullity at WP.

Canadian fiddle is Canadian fiddle. It has its own distinct tradition. You know that already because you have not raised this argument on the fiddle article. In fact, this article was created in part to cure a redlink on the fiddle page, which lists Canadian fiddle separately from American fiddle. So why are you raising this argument now, with me, and not before?

Some players do intermix with USA versions quite a bit esp in New England and Great Lakes area. Quebec fiddle style is also its own important style. But don't forget also that WP needs to recognize the actual usage of the terminology and not interject a modification based upon any kind of broader political concept of the use of the term America. For instance, in the song America the Beautiful, it can be interpreted as to include Mexico and Canada, but probably seldom is. And the key factoid IMO is that Mexican violin music is not in any way integrated with the Anglo-Celtic USA and Canadian strains. But your point is important and warrants additional consideration.GeoBard^Rap 23:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Considering the commingling of several traditions across that long US/Canadian border, a move to something like "North American fiddling" or "Anglo-American fiddling" might be in order, or maybe not. I'm not so sure that Acadian or Afro-American fiddling fit so well with that last one. Kindly note that this is not the US Wikipedia, but the English-language one, and it needs to be written from a different, more precisely aimed angle than a metaphorical song title. This may take some thought, as you mentioned... Comments? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit conflict, sort of. I already took your point. Look at the "hatnote".01:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Reading now your comment: I appreciate your use of the term "kindly". This is the first time I had a reference to the USA criticized on WP where it was not made with a tone of moral superiority so, we can be friends. However, in this situation, the point is inapposite. The usage is what it is - please, do google "American fiddle" and see what comes up. No Canada, no Mexico. I am no enemy of multiculturalists. Go to my user page and scroll down to the Water resources policy page I created - totally a global perspective. I am warned to expect a hostile POV takeover attmept but so far the work is resilient. But in this case, I am not taking the globalist perspective because the content does not warrant it. America means USA, in this context. Look at the disambiguation page, I am not making this up. I am strictly NPOV about all of this.

Also, I don't get your point about "metaphorical song title". It just sounds condescending on your part as if you think you are communicating with some kind of idiot. Please be more clear rather than metaphorical because your point is lost.

I have been on Wikipedia for a while and am fully aware that "this is not the US Wikipedia, but the English-language one". This does not however mean that articles about USAmerican culture are verboten. There is plenty of room for articles about American fiddle, Canadian fiddle and Mexican fiddle. I am prepared to take this to an RFC rather than wheel warring but be advised that as musicians we should probably work this out among ourselves otherwise non-musician opinion may screw up WP music for a long time to come. As we all know, "experts" are driven away from WP, or so they say. GeoBard^Rap 01:27, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

The hatnote seems like an apt solution. I think I saw you use the words "fuzzy logic" somewhere else, which helped prompt my mention of the metaphorical use of "America" in "America the Beautiful," which carries a different significance than the use of the word "American" in an encyclopedia article title.

No need for wheel warring. In fact, since I am not an admin here, it isn't even possible. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

No worry. I feel honored to have drawn your interest and attention. I hope you will feel enough of a sense of ownership to actively contribute. I could probably learn a lot from you anyway and I always take challenges as my best opportunity to learn. GeoBard^Rap 02:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Kind words, thanks! I do see some room to pull parts of this article into focus. As others notice the article, it is guaranteed to change and change again.

I believe New Mexican fiddling has a strong tradition going. It may have only a tenuous relation to traditions from south of the border, but I have no direct experience of that, nor even much second-hand hearsay to go by. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 03:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Requests for help

Irish fiddle

Persons interested in improvements to this page might also want to take a look at some undeveloped pages on related topics:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_fiddle

This is a vast topic and a very minimalist article.01:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Old time fiddle

That is not my area of expertise and I would greatly appreciate if Bill or anyone else were to take an interest in giving that topic the treatment it deserves.01:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)