Talk:Tenor horn

It is not simply a difference between British English and American English

Dear DBak,

Thanks for your input, but I am afraid that you are not entirely right. You say "So it is a simple British English vs. American English thing: the BrE tenor horn is in E-flat and is the same as the AmE alto horn." The first video that I am posting below shows a British musician from The Prince Regents Band who shows a tenor horn in B-flat and calls it a "Tenor horn", comparing it to the baritone in B-flat. The second video shows you an American musician who shows an alto horn and calls it "a Tenor horn in E-flat in the British tradition or Alto horn in American tradition". This would be OK, but the same person also shows a Tenor horn and calls it "a Baritone". I wonder what Americans call "a Tenor horn", then? With the risk of your extracting the following phrase from my paragraph and say "this does not help your case", I will reiterate that there is no such thing as "a Tenor horn in E-flat". Check the British video again and you will witness the British tradition. Perhaps you have not looked and any scores for wind orchestra that come from Europe, because if you have, you will immediately realize that the Wiki article is generally wrong. No one should ever confuse a simple alto horn in E-flat with a tenor horn in B-flat. A quotation from the wiki:

"The tenor horn is a valved brass instrument (in E♭) which has a predominantly conical bore like the baritone horn and flugelhorn." Well, that is wrong from a general point of view. Also, "The tenor horn (British English; alto horn in American English, Althorn in Germany; occasionally referred to as E♭ horn) No one in Europe does occasionally refer to a Tenor as "E-flat horn"! If Americans also think the instrument in E-flat is an alto horn, and if the British video below shows that a tenor horn is in B-flat and the British are not confused either, who refers to the tenor as an E-flat instrument?

The correction in the Wiki article should be general, not cosmetic, and it should say that the Tenor horn is a B-flat instrument; that in Europe it is called "a Tenor horn" or a "Bass-flugelhorn", while in the US it is known as "a Baritone". On the other hand, what they call "Baritone" in Europe is known in the US as "an Euphonium". No mentioning of any alto horn is needed in this article. I bet you will sooner or later realize that I am right...

In a wind orchestra score, there are typically three tenor horns (American: baritones) in B-flat: I, II, III, the first playing a low melody or counterpoint, and the other two - harmonic voices. In a bass figure part of the composition, they may join the first bass to boost the line, or sometimes, the three tenors and the baritone may carry a low line in unison. There is also at least one Baritone (American: Euphonoum) which functions in the same way as the 1st Tenor.

Please, see the two videos below and let me know what you think"

1. A British musician thoughtfully explains the difference between Tenor in B-flat and Baritone in B-flat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q&t=55s

2. An American musician shows an alto horn and calls it "a Tenor horn in E-flat" (from a supposed British point of view), then shows a tenor horn and calls it "a baritone". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MJAs3pT01s&t=21s

Mutaeditor, 2 September 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello Mutaeditor and thank you for this. The article is about the E-flat horn which is pictured in its infobox photo. That's the thing like a small saxhorn, pitched in E-flat so its written C comes out a sixth lower. That is the instrument that the article is about and it makes this clear, repeatedly. I believe that yes, it is indeed a pretty simple BrE/AmE issue, because this article, like our Baritone horn article, uses the current BrE terminology, just as we do in the UK in the brass band, jazz, or whatever. So that instrument, the smallish saxhorn that is next down in pitch under the Bb flugelhorn, is indeed a tenor horn in the UK and an alto horn in the US, unless the US speaker is deliberately using British-style terminology, perhaps in a brass band context.

What I think of your two videos (as requested):

1. It's great, but he is an original-instruments player from an original-instruments band. He is not playing a current tenor horn: he is showing us the old instruments that he plays in the band. It sounds as if he would probably call their E-flat horn an alto, but he would also know that this is not current mainstream BrE usage. He is not showing us the instrument that this article is about, and what he says on terminology does not really relate to this article. I did really like this clip, thank you, and will show it and others from The Prince Regent's Band to the children I teach.

2. Lovely. He is not an American, but a New Zealander, and uses NZ English which is close to BrE, and is talking about NZ brass band terminology which is the same as BrE brass band. So he is absolutely correctly showing us a tenor horn in E-flat and then a baritone in B-flat. His terminology is perfect and exactly in tune with our Tenor Horn article in its current form.

While we are sharing links you might want to look at:

• Kate Westbrook a jazz tenor horn player on her E-flat tenor horn
• Sheona White an eminent tenor horn player and teacher, with her E-flat tenor horn
• Here is a shop selling tenor horns, in E-flat, also in BrE. We bought about 40 of those: they are quite good.
• Here is a rather more famous maker where you can buy E-flat tenor horns and B-flat baritones.
• The Grove Music Online Tenor Horn article says, A valved brass instrument of alto pitch, like a small euphonium in shape; in British brass band scores it is usually referred to as ‘E♭ horn’. and goes on later to say The instrument of the brass band that stands in B♭, a 4th below the tenor horn, is known in Britain and the USA as the ‘baritone’ and in Germany as Tenorhorn (see Baritone). and that (see) link goes to their Baritone article, as described.
• Grove / Oxford also have an article "Tenor Horn (jazz)" which simply confirms this, and at their article Alto Horn they do it again with American term for a valved brass instrument pitched in E♭ below the cornet and employed in some wind bands; its form is upright, often with the bell turned forward. It is equivalent to the English Tenorhorn.

Have you got the Cliff Bevan book? It's really about tubas, and I can't lay my hands on it right now, but I have a bit of a feeling that he gets into the saxhorn terminology a bit, and is maybe referenced by others.

So yes, it really is pretty much a simple question of BrE and AmE terminology. This article is not about B-flat instruments at all: it is about the E-flat instrument which we in the UK and Commonwealth and brass bands call a tenor horn, and that Americans not deliberately using that language will probably call an alto horn. The article uses the BrE term but explains the AmE one clearly. This language variation is a royal pain sometimes, all over the place, and even worse in a messy area like brass terminology, but we mostly cope with it through the joys of WP:ENGVAR.

I hope this helps. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

PS I had to step in and attempt to impersonate a sarrusophone on a gig a few months ago. This was a new experience ... probably a first and last! :)

Change the title of article

Dear Colleagues,

It looks as if some musicians in Great Britain (not all), call the alto horn "a tenor horn" which is wrong in comparison with the rest of the world. I suggest that you open some European scores for wind orchestra and see in there the parts for Tenor, I, II, and III in B-flat (which in USA would mean Baritone I, II, III in B-flat). What Europeans call a baritone is known under "euphonium" in Europe. If you tell a German musician, or an Italian, Russian, French, Dutch, Eastern European in general - that the tenor horn is an instrument pitched in E-flat, they will be astounded, the least to say...

This is why I am very sorry for the provincial explanation in the Grove dictionary which obviously reflects what is thought of in some British bands as "Tenor horn", dismissing the fact that worldwide this instrument is considered an alto horn. That is not only a pity, it sends a wrong signal to the entire world. On the other hand, if they rephrase this by saying that "the alto horn, an instrument pitched in E-flat and corresponding in function to the French horn, is known in Great Britain bands as "tenor horn in E-flat", that would partially clear the confusion...

Therefore, I have a proposition for some of you: you are right that the Wiki article is about an instrument pitched in E-flat. Just do not call it "a tenor horn, "but changed the name of the same article to "Alto Horn". Then everything will fall in place and the vast majority of the world will know what you are talking about. This does not prevent you from stating that in some Great Britain bands they call the alto horn "a tenor horn in E-flat". :)

To summarize: In Europe - tenor horn = baritone in USA; in Europe - baritone = euphonium in USA; in Europe - alto horn = alto horn in USA. And for those of you who still insist that the alto horn should be called "a tenor horn" in Great Britain, I am pasting the British video again, where a British instrumentalist very clearly shows and calls "Tenor horn" an instrument in B-flat, comparing it to the slightly wider baritone. About this vide you say: "It's great, but he is an original-instruments player from an original-instruments band. He is not playing a current tenor horn: he is showing us the old instruments that he plays in the band. It sounds as if he would probably call their E-flat horn an alto, but he would also know that this is not current mainstream BrE usage." I do not sense the logic here; that he is an original instrumentalist from an original instruments-band does not make him wrong by saying that a tenor horn is an instrument in B-flat; this is what all the world thinks except from some parts of Great Britain and The Common Wealth, as you say. No, these are not "old-fashioned instruments" who have lost their application nowadays. Germans still produce oval shaped tenors and baritones like those, vs. the American baritones and euphoniums. Thanks for your attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q&t=58s

Best regards,

Mutaeditor, 8 September, 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 18:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

For the record, I am opposed to this change, especially after carefully rereading this entire Talk page, but I am finished discussing this matter for now. Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Presentation of the Alto Horn by a British instrumentalist

Dear Colleagues,

Please take a look at this video, where a British instrumentalist presents the alto horn (in E-flat), and compare to the video below it, where another British instrumentalist presents the tenor horn and the baritone (both in B-flat, of course). These two presentations summarize the view of almost the entire musical world about the alto, tenor and baritone horns, including the British Regent's orchestra instrumentalists (at least), and makes strange the claim of some other British musicians that an alto horn should be called "a tenor horn in E-flat". No, there is no such thing, and if Wikipedia wants to clear its reputation, it should reflect the worldwide opinion on the alto and tenor horns, and not the limited, peculiar interpretation shared by some people on the isle. Is Wikipedia supposed to be a reflection of provincial, uncommon, and highly questionable views of some of its members, or is it supposed to be a reflection of what the vast majority of musicians around the world (including some British musicians) think? If it is the later, then the title Tenor Horn should be changed to Alto Horn, and everything will fall in place. No, it is not about the difference between British English and American English interpretation; it is about the difference between the musical world and a limited circle of British musicians. Compare to saxophones (except the Baritone Sax):

Alto sax is in E-flat, and Alto horn is in E-flat.

Tenor sax is in B-flat, and Tenor horn is in B-flat. I think that, originally, these instruments (saxes, tenor and alto horns) may have been invented or improved by the same maker (hence the name Saxhorns for the latter).

The British Regent's Band on Alto horn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4-pOZp78wA

The British Regent's Band on Tenor horn and baritone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q

Mutaeditor, 13 September, 2021.Mutaeditor (talk) 00:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

This is a rehash of the same item above. —C.Fred (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Versions of the alto horn

Hi, I was wondering if I should add some info on versions of the alto horn such as the double bell alto horn, Over the shoulder alto horn, and marching alto horn. The actinium is mentioned, but I wanted to see if this info would be notable enough to add to the page. Ryan56DCIfan (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Technical Writing

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 August 2024 and 17 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RMB0627 (article contribs).

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