Talk:Alternatives to Darwinian evolution/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

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Reviewer: StN (talk · contribs) 02:09, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Against. The article is highly tendentious and one-sided as it stands. All the alternatives presented are represented as incorrect. Darwinism is equated to "Evolution" (not even to a plausible theory of evolution.) Although there are reputable present-day scientific advocates of Lamarckism, saltationism, and orthogenesis (all dismissed here) publishing in well-regarded journals, and even physicalist/structuralist theories in the domain of evolutionary developmental biology combining all three, this article acts as if evolutionary theory reached its conceptual apogee ca. 1975 and has barely changed since. StN (talk) 02:09, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for taking this on. I am willing to work with you through this review to bring the article to a state that we are both satisfied with. To do this, we need to itemise specific comments for action or discussion. To begin, I have listed points from your comment below as separate threads, and replied stating where appropriate what action I intend to take on them. Discussion and further points are invited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• The article is highly tendentious and one-sided as it stands.

It is difficult to reply to adjectives as they do not suggest specific corrective actions. The section on each theory does already summarize the evidence for and against that theory, using reliable secondary sources (generally historians of science, reviewing the evidence). What I agree needs to be described further is where theories continue to be held (often in very different forms from those of the 19th century) by scientists today. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• All the alternatives presented are represented as incorrect.

Not in so many words, no. Each one is described and assessed on the evidence and cited to reliable sources. Again (as above), modern continuations may lend nuances to this. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

As promised, I have extended the sections to bring them up to the present. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Darwinism is equated to "Evolution" (not even to a plausible theory of evolution.)

You mean that in this historical context, it was just one of the various theories of Evolution? OK, I've removed the link from the Darwinism row in the table. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Although there are reputable present-day scientific advocates of Lamarckism, saltationism, and orthogenesis (all dismissed here) publishing in well-regarded journals, and even physicalist/structuralist theories in the domain of evolutionary developmental biology combining all three, this article acts as if evolutionary theory reached its conceptual apogee ca. 1975 and has barely changed since.

This is a fair point. I will extend coverage to the present time. History books of course tend to look backwards. I think we will need both some material in each theory's section, and to extend at the end of the article to balance the 'rebirth of Darwinism'. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Done, I have extended several of the theory sections and the final section to bring the coverage up to the present. I hope you are pleased with the result. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

This is much better now in my opinion, thanks to Chiswick Chap. StN (talk) 15:38, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks. Are we ready for GA or what else needs to be done? Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:56, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I think I am right in thinking that other users are welcome to weigh in on GA reviews? (If not I will transfer this to the general talk page.) Though I really appreciate the content, which tackles (from personal experience) a fraught and complex subject, I feel that StN's original complaint remains valid: the article is shot through with presentism. "Denial of Change" is perhaps the most egregious instance: to say that Aristotle or any classical/medieval scholar was "den[ying]" change is a poor choice of language that misrepresents their thinking (header needs a neutral, non-oppositional name); equally in the wording of other statements: "By 1818, however, it was clear" (suggest remove/reword); the table column of 'Evidence Against' is unambiguously non-neutral, providing listings for every case except Darwinism (suggest remove/reword). Elsewhere, as also said, there seems to be a blurring of evolution/Darwinism so that denial of the second becomes denial of the first. On a related note, I think that a non-specialist coming to the subject needs to be given much greater context for evolution and Darwinism to be able to understand the content. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:05, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

What was the rationale for this article as distinct from History of evolutionary thought? MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:13, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment No article with a title like "Alternatives to Darwinism" should be promoted to GA. I would say the same for any article that uses the word "Darwinism" unironically in Wikipedia's voice anywhere in its text, except maybe to refer to some idiosyncratic view held by Charles Darwin (not being a specialist, I don't know if there is such a thing). I think it's a miracle this GA nomination was brought to the community's attention as quickly as it was so that one good-faith but misinformed GA reviewer didn't accidentally pass it based on their own ignorance of the topic and an "assumption of good faith" that it meets all the GA criteria (you'd be surprised how many GA noms pass in this kind of cloak-and-dagger fashion). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:19, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, at the very best this article is similar to that much-maligned cover of New Scientist. Most of the scientists and others named in the article didn't/don't deny evolution, but they proposed alternative theories to some things that Darwin himself could not or did not explain adequately. By this standard, pretty much everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of genetics could be labeled "anti-Darwinist" by virtue of knowing something about the natural world that wasn't understood in Darwin's lifetime. Maybe by this kind of "idiosyncratic views held by evolutionists of Darwin's own generation who hadn't developed the science of evolutionary biology as far as it has been today" definition of "Darwinism", much of this article could in theory be acceptable, but "Darwinism" doesn't actually mean that in common parlance, is almost certain to be misunderstood by almost everyone, and so having this article as it is currently written is if anything likely to bring Wikipedia into disrepute. Admittedly, GA is not the same as "Today's Featured Article", but it would still put the page on a relatively very short list of articles that the community has deemed "Good". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:49, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

There is as yet NO GA REVIEW in progress - this discussion was started in error by an editor who did not wish to be a reviewer. If you want to discuss the title, that's at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Alternatives to Darwinism which will choose a title that all can live with. If you have suggestions for the article, please cut them from here and paste them on the article's talk page. Thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:35, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.