Talk:Ali Bey al-Kabir

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He was abkhazian. In 1728 there were not georgians in Abkhazia at all. Read Plescheev S.(1752-1802) - russian writer, traveller and translator. Не was vice Admiral of russian army in Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774) and took part in negotiations with Ali Bey, about Ottoman Empire. In the diary he describes Ali bey and his live. He wrote that Ali Bey Al-Kabir was abkhazian and worried about destiny of Abkhazia in that war. --Гениох (talk) 09:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Georgians in Abkhazia in 1886 less when 1% (608 persons), they have started to occupy Abkhazia after Russian-Circassian War (1763 - 1864), when 80% оf abkhazs have been killed or sent to Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Abkhazia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Гениох (talk • contribs) 09:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Per sources

Britannica states, "Alī Bey, (born 1728, Abkhasia, Caucasus [now Abkhaziya, Georgia]—died May 8, 1773, near Ṣāliḥiyya, Egypt), Mamlūk governor of Egypt under Ottoman suzerainty who attempted to throw off the Ottoman Turkish rule. ʿAlī Bey was an enslaved Caucasian who was made a gift to Ibrāhīm Katkhudā, an emir who was the virtual ruler of Egypt." I see no mention of Ali Bey being Abkhasian.

Ali Bey al-Kabir, Alexander Mikaberidze, Conflict and Conquest in the Islamic World: A Historical Encyclopedia, Vol. I, ed. Alexander Mikaberidze, (ABC-CLIO, 2011), 83-84, states, "He was born in northwestern Georgia and his father was a priest in the Georgian Orthodox church." No where have I stated he was of any ethnicity. Whereas the Britannica source is being used to state an ethnicity which is not mentioned in Britannica. I would suggest to user:Roksanna to refrain from these types of statements, "2. britannica.com is a more reputable source than a propaganda book from caucasus nationalists". --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, how to say it in a more diplomatical way... there is an actual georgian-abkhazian conflict... and so, maybe, an author with a georgian background is not the optimal neutral source. It is similar as I would let explain a German the World War, let an American explain why it was needed to use the atomic bomb or let a Russian explain the Crimean conflict... in that case a well established source like the Encyclopaedia Britannica seems to be a more reputable source. By the way, before you that Georgian-made book you tried to use a propaganda website as source? If the Georgian guy is the only who write about the Georgian background, then better do not mention it at all. Please try to understand why I felt I had to react anyway. So, of course, britannica says Abkhazia, not Abkhazian, I corrected it now. And, Abkhazia is not automatically North West Georgia, of course, a non-Georgian author is better in that case. I corrected it. Generally there are much more things to say about Ali Bey than his origins. Best regards --Roksanna (talk) 18:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Well,

1.Unless you can prove I have used a "propaganda website" as a source, consider this your final warning regarding your battleground attitude.

2."If the Georgian guy is the only who write about the Georgian background"... As stated before, again, the source from Mikaberidze does not state Georgian background, merely "born in northwestern Georgia and his father was a priest in the Georgian Orthodox church". Your own bias, nothing else, interpretes Mikaberidze as stating Ali Bey had a "Georgian background".

3.And, yes secondary sources such as Mikaberidze are more reputable than Britannica which is a tertiary source. Regards --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, usually phrases like "this is a final warning" do not impress me at all. It is usually meant as a threat and I usually do not react. In your case I will make an exception just because I have a nice day. It will be hard to prove that a guy with a family name Mikaberidze has not a Georgian background, it automatically produces doubts about his neutrality and reputation about Georgian-touched themes. The tendency to make every Abkhazian or Caucasian a Georgian I can see clearly. But finally you found an acceptable phrase when you just wrote he was a son of an orthodox priest without repeating what Mikaberidze wrote (that he was Georgian-orthodox) because exactly that I would doubt. Well done! By the way, check which source was mentioned in the text before I changed it the first time and then tell me that this caucasus-website was neutral and reputable. --Roksanna (talk) 12:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Since you can not provide evidence that I, "tried to use a propaganda website as source". I would suggest you drop it.

"By the way, check which source was mentioned in the text before I changed it the first time and then tell me that this caucasus-website was neutral and reputable." No idea what you are talking about. I never added any website as a source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:49, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my mistake, obviously it was not you, but Jaqeli or anybody else of "you" (in the meaning of "you guys") before. Kavkasia.net is not a reputable source. However, it was not my intention to offend you and I did not expect you would be that touchy. Whatever. Best regards --Roksanna (talk) 20:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Sicill-i Osmani and end of Ali Bey's reign

Is this view supported by any modern historian or research? --Arturius001 (talk) 18:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

EoI 3

@Kansas Bear:

"ʿAlī Bey al-Kabīr (c. 1140–87/1728–73), an Egyptian mamlūk of Georgian origin, rose to become one of the most powerful political figures of Egypt. According to his contemporary biographer Sauveur Lusignan, he was born in Abkhazia, then a small province in northwestern Georgia. Supposedly the son of David, a Greek Orthodox priest, he was sold into slavery in 1154/1741, around the age of thirteen, taken to Egypt, bought by two Jewish customs agents, and offered as a gift to the Georgian Ibrāhīm Katkhudā, who at the time dominated the janissary corps and ruled Egypt in partnership with Riḍwān Katkhudā, the head of the ʿazab corps. Given the name ʿAlī, he was trained in his master’s household and in 1163/1749 was made kāshif (governor of a sub-province). After showing great courage in repelling Bedouin attacks against a pilgrim caravan he accompanied, he was manumitted and elevated to the rank of sancaq beyi about the time of his master’s death in 1168/1754." -- Crecelius, Daniel (2007). "ʿAlī Bey al- Kabīr". In Fleet, Kate; Krämer, Gudrun; Matringe, Denis; Nawas, John; Rowson, Everett (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam (3rd ed.). Brill Online. doi:10.1163/1573-3912_ei3_SIM_0207. ISSN 1873-9830.

- LouisAragon (talk) 18:15, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Were you wanting a verification of the EoI? Or something more specific? --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

I noticed these edits[1]-[2]-[3] (etc.) as well as this old discussion, so I wanted to add material from this source to the article in order to improve its content quality. Would you agree that this source basically states that Ali Bey al-Kabir was an ethnic Georgian from Abkhazia? - LouisAragon (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Yep. I did notice, after I had posted my response, the 4yr old "discussion" with a rather battleground editor. Excellent find, LouisAragon! --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I wish we had unlimited access to EoI THREE. It has so many awesome entries. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I have a version of EoI on my computer. Although, I am not sure if I tried to find Ali Bey al-Kabir or not. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:48, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I see. Btw, in his 2015 work (Historical Dictionary of Georgia, p. 112), Mikaberidze refers to Ali Bey as being born into "a Georgian family of orthodox Christians in western Georgia". Does that imply that he changed his stance compared to his 2011 work, where he specifically mentioned "Georgian Orthodox Church"? - LouisAragon (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, after your post I did a google book search consisting of "Ali bey Kabir" + "Georgian", "Ali be Kabir" + "Abkhazia". From these searches I am theorizing that google books changes their viewable books from time to time(ie. I had a number of hits concerning al-Kabir's ethnicity as compared to previous searches.) As for Mikaberidze, maybe he was just writing what he could recall. Although, I do think it is interesting/questionable that certain historical people who were captured and sold into slavery(Roxelana, al-Kabir), their fathers were priests. Maybe its just a coincidence, or really bad historiography. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I noticed that as well in relation to google.books. It can be pretty annoying sometimes. Though google.books is a godsent, it has some "odd features" as well. Had one occassion (long ago) where the entire content of a book was "matched" to the wrong title. So imagine clicking on a book about Winnie-the-Pooh, but only seeing text about Quantum mechanics. As for the overal historiography in relation to Ali Bey, thats a fair point. Who knows, maybe the ol' slave traders specifically looked for fathers who were priests??! lul.
Anyways, do you think I just leave it as it is, or should I add a note about Mikaberidze's "change of hearts" (i.e. 2011 vs 2015)? - LouisAragon (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, make a note and mention Mikaberidze's "change of heart" in the note with a reference. Probably best we can do without crossing into Wikipedia:OR. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done - LouisAragon (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Since we are working on this article, your thoughts on this source?

• Constantin-François Volney, Travels Through Syria and Egypt, in the Years 1783, 1784, and 1785, third edition (London, 1805), vol. 1 p. 111f

Think we can find something more modern? --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:56, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the initiative to work on this article. I’m pinging Fitzcarlman. He and I had discussed working on this a couple months ago. He might have access to some good sources as he created Russian occupations of Beirut, which highly involved Ali Bey. I’ll see what I can find in the meantime. —Al Ameer (talk) 23:18, 22 December 2018 (UTC)