Talk:Ali Pasha of Gusinje

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ali Pasha of Gusinje article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Military history: Biography / Balkan / European B‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present)
	European military history task force

Albania Mid‑importance

	Ali Pasha of Gusinje is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Montenegro Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Montenegro, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Montenegro on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MontenegroWikipedia:WikiProject MontenegroTemplate:WikiProject MontenegroMontenegro articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Former countries: Ottoman Empire

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Ottoman Empire (assessed as Mid-importance).

Biography: Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Requested move (2009)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was moved back to Ali-paša Šabanagić -- Aervanath (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He is much more known for its Montenegrin name, this was original name of the article, it was moved without discussion. Tadija (talk) 09:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article reads "He was more commonly known as Ali-paša Gusinjski or Ali Pash Gucia". If that's the case, shouldn't one of those names be used instead? Jafeluv (talk) 09:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Ali-paša Gusinjski regarding his name that we want to rename here... Tadija (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ali-paša Šabanagić

The only source calls him by Ali Pasha of Gusinje. See source. Actually I propose that we rename to Ali Shabanagaj as per Wikiproject Albania consensus. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont have any will left to show you what obvious is. Just see this. (E.L.) Also, Wikiproject Albania consensus? Alk for rename on talk page, as that is ONLY logical way, and all of you should stop with vandalism moves, with "logic" explanation like "a move request isn't needed since this is obvious". ! O, please, leave me alone! Gang! --Tadija^speaks 20:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tadija there are only 2 results on google books regarding Ali-paša Šabanagić, while there are about 60-70 results for Ali Pasha of Gucia which is the common name used for him. This isn't a controversial topic, so please don't react in that manner.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

3 on Google books. Again false positives, Zjarri? --Tadija^speaks 00:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, why are you removing name? As you see by sources, he is better known by those name. --Tadija^speaks 22:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with kedadi per WP:MOSNAME and if he is known in Slavic' languages by any name, it is unrelated to the English wikipedia.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are not allowed to remove valid sources. As per his relationship with Montenegro, and Serbia, his name is HIGHLY relevant. Also, WP:MOSNAME is unrelated to this question. --Tadija^speaks 15:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no policy allowing you to add names in various languages(other than English) not related to someone's ethnicity just because someone notable enough acted in various ways in a modern country. It's against the policy and it's a deductive fallacy, because then we should add Slavic names in Roman emperors or Celtic tribal leaders who were born in modern Slavic countries.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ones again, that what you just said is

Unrelated to the question above. He was relevant during his life time to the Serbia and Montenegro. As it is cited in the article "He ruled over an area in eastern Montenegro", language tag will be reverted. Also, references. --Tadija^speaks 16:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's the policy and your arbitrary self-proclaimed policy is a deductive fallacy. There is no part of the policy saying that because someone ruled over an area the local name of that area should be used.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is not local name of the area, Zjarri, that is his real name. His real surname was Šabanagić/Shabanagaj. As you can see in all other articles, real name can and should be added at the article beginnings. Dont worry, he will not be less Albanian with that. --Tadija^speaks 17:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (2010)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ali Pasha of Gucia → Ali-paša Gusinjski —

Name	Hits	Link
Ali-paša Gusinjski	32 (26 + 6)	26, 6
Ali Pashë Gucia	12	12
Ali-paša Šabanagić	4 (2+2)	2, 2
Ali Pasha of Gucia	3	3
Ali Paša of Gusinje	2	2
Ali Beg Shabanagaj	0	0

Well, it is quite clear. From all names mentioned in the article, the most common name, by WP:COMMONNAME, is Ali-paša Gusinjski. --Tadija^speaks 00:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - WP:COMMONNAME refers to English-language use, use in other languages is not counted as you have above. If you go through your links and look for English-language hits you get 3 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia, 2 for Ali Paša of Gusinje; all the others have zero English-language hits. Given those results, the page is probably at the best title already. Knepflerle (talk) 08:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per Knepflerle. kedadial 19:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is English Wikipedia, and the titles should be the most commonly used English name, as Knepflerle said.--WikiDonn (talk) 09:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per users above. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 02:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The same reason as Tadija mention. Rave92^(talk) 09:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

July 2010, edit warring

Seems that Kilibarda (talk · contribs) with his recent edits ([1], [2], [3]) is pushing POV without any discussion. Cheers. kedadial 14:08, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How is this even remotely POV? My edits only reinforce the content already written in the article. Also, it is absolutely ridiculous to state that Ali Pasha of Gucia is used more frequently than Ali Pasha of Gusinje. That is POV right there. Also, tell me this, is the title of the Gusinje article Gusinje or Gucia? --Kilibarda (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For that, you might want to take a look at Talk:Ali Pasha of Gucia#Ali-paša Šabanagić and Talk:Ali Pasha of Gucia#Requested move (2010). I would suggest to discuss anything that might be controversial before making any changes. Cheers. Kedadi 23:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For you Albanians, anything remotely pro-Montenegrin is considered controversial and wrong. Not that I am throwing personal attacks or anything. Fact of the matter is that I truly believe that it might actually be better that the article name be his actual name to avoid conflict but even there we have a problem. Albanians say Shabanagaj, Montenegrins Šabanagić. Even among the local population, he is known as Šabanagić. Just thought I might throw that there. --Kilibarda (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look, all POV aside, how about we make this as NPOV as possible and rename the article to Ali Pasha (born 1828). You cannot argue with that solution could you? --Kilibarda (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My edits are anything but controversial and POV. I am sure I can easily find you another source stating other, more absurd and far-fetched details about Ali Pasha. --Kilibarda (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I

Agree on your proposal for that move, as this is very POV, and inaccurate per wiki rules. --Tadija^speaks 22:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tadija you have already proposed this and the consensus was against your proposal.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not true! :) Proposal was Ali paša Gusinjski, not this. --Tadija^speaks 12:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like the dispute is between Gusinje and Gucia. At that time the city was known by the name of Gucia, not Gusinje and for that matter it gained international notability during the League of Prizren, so it should be named Gucia. But even though that might not work, Ali Pasha of Gucia was notable by himself in the 19th century with that name. Thank you! --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 13:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ali-paša Šabanagić

he was a Bosniak should perhaps write in the text --92.231.250.213 (talk) 12:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was not a Bosniak as modern Bosniak propaganda states he was. He was Albanian. --13:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilibarda (talk • contribs)

he was a Bosniak, and nothing you can not change. The Albanian propaganda him tried for his death to make as Albanians as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUIdq7j6uk

http://zsdholland.ning.com/group/braniteljisandzaka/forum/topics/gusinje-plav-alipasa-sabanagic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.31.100 (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Various remarks

"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Albanian military commander and one of the leaders of the League of Prizren. He ruled over an area in eastern Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje").[1][2] He was the leader of the Albanian troops at the battle of Nokšić."

Theritory that Ali Pasha was in charge for (Plav and Gusinje) in period (1828–1885) belonged to Ottoman empire. Therefore it is wrong to state that area he ruled over was in eastern Montenegro (although that area today belongs to Montenegro). His soldiers were not only Albanians, but also Turks and other muslims (todays Bosniaks) from whole area surrounding Plav and Gusinje. Therefore I propose to change above text to:

"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Ottoman military commander and one of the leaders of the League of Prizren. He ruled over an area of Ottoman empire that nowdays belongs to eastern Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje"). He was the leader of the Ottoman troops at the battle of Nokšić." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nokšić or Nokshiq

Below are Google Search results on English language:

It is obvious that Nokšić is much more presented.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Antid. your google search shows nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" i.e the sources refer to the battle of Nokshiq and not once is there a reference about a battle of Noksic, however, it is mentioned once as the battle of Novsice (alb. Nokshiq). The toponym you're mentioning isn't even the Slavic counterpart of Nokshiq(Novsice) Btw it was a League of Prizren vs. Montenegro battle.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you are right about google search. I did not pay enough attention on that. It certainly does show nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" and I am sorry for my mistake. But I am not sure that you are right about Ottoman troops being Albanian troops. Please don't forget that League of Prizren was created and initially controlled by Ottoman Empire. That means that League of Prizren was part of Ottoman armed forces, not Albanian. When I find some sources which support my position I will present them here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The League of Prizren was not part of the Ottoman army Antid. The battle of Nokshiq was part of a series of battles against the Principality of Montenegro that led to the siege of Ulqin, which ended the revolt after the intervention of both the Great Powers by sea and the Ottoman army.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please let us continue this discussion on the basis on the sources, not our interpretations.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming

"Ali Pasha of Gucia" -wikipedia -Llc - 4 hits (All of them are actually written by one author - Robert Elsie)
"Ali Pasha of Gusinje" -wikipedia -Llc - 15 hits

Based on above search results I will rename this article to Ali Pasha of Gusinje.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:12, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This move didn't follow procedures of wikipedia, and is incorrect. It also goes against what was decided earlier on based on a community vote. Besides the fact that I see just 8 vs 14 sources (hardly overwhelming majority to warrant a move), back in the 19th century Google didn't exist, and sources of the 19th century referred to the city with the Albanian name Gucia (not Gusinje). --Tringellima (talk) 03:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Google searches 19th century sources too. Many 19th century English language sources explicitly use "Ali Pasha of Gusinje", so you actually refuted your own position. The 2010 discussion was about renaming to Ali-paša Gusinjski, not Ali Pasha of Gusinje. The article was renamed 9 months ago and nobody contested it although many editors edited it. You are right that now GBS is not anymore 15:4 but 14:8. Still, the advantage is significant, especially taking in consideration that almost all 8 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia are Elsie+Kadare. On the other hand 15 hits for Ali Pasha of Gusinje include authors like Bejtullah D. Destani and Noel Malkolm who are certainly not anti-Albanian. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]