Talk:57th Rifle Division

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:57th Rifle Division (Soviet Union)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ed! (talk · contribs) 03:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Looking at this one. —Ed!^(talk) 03:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria) (see here for this contributor's history of GA reviews)

1. It is reasonably well written:

   • "Russian Civil War" -- Any sense of the number of troops when formed? Or maybe is there a typical number of troops of the units of this type when they were formed at the time?

• I have been able to find information on the specific organization of the divisions, but not about their strength. --Look at List of infantry divisions of the Soviet Union 1917–57 and its references. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1. • Any idea if the troops are experienced or what their level of training is?

• No specific information available easily, though that information would certainly be contained in archival documents. Unfortunately, the only archival documents online are from the 1941–1945 period. Kges1901 (talk) 12:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. • What was Ivan Onufriyev's rank?

• Red Army officers did not have ranks at this time, since, due to the "revolutionary spirit", ranks were considered part of the pre-revolutionary order. Kges1901 (talk) 11:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. • Khalkhin Gol: I note no mention of casualties inflicted or sustained during the maneuvers. Any indication?

• Red Army casualties for specific units are extremely hard to find since Soviet accounts were biased by ideology and downplayed casualties. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, parts of the archives have been opened, but only total figures for Soviet casualties at Khalkhin Gol have been published. Kges1901 (talk) 11:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• In that case, an independent historian's account of how big a unit of this size typically was will do. I also think you should put in the total casualties for all of Khalkhin Gol, and then say that there isn't a breakdown of how many of those were in this unit. Other than that, the rest seems to work. —Ed!^(talk) 15:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. • 75 mm cannon -- please use the {{convert}} for our friends not on the metric system. Same goes for "145 kilometer march" "50 to 60 kilometers of sandy roads" "950–1000 kilometer march"

• Done. Kges1901 (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable:

   Pass No problems there.

2. It is broad in its coverage:

   Any numbers on the size of the unit, casualties, famous people who were part of it or things of that type would be much appreciated.

• The only size numbers I could find were the November 1940 numbers already in the text. No casualty figures available in secondary sources, and no information on famous people who were not commanders. Kges1901 (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. It follows the neutral point of view policy:

   Pass Not seeing any substantive problem there.

2. It is stable:

   • Pass No problems there.

3. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:

   • Any indication the troops in the photos are from this unit?

• No, there were thousands of Soviet troops at Khalkhin Gol for the first photo. The second photo is of a T-34, which the division was not equipped with at any time. Kges1901 (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. Other:

   • Nothing substantial in Dab links. Dup links and external links tools show no problems. No provlems on copyvio tool, either.
   • Source spotcheck Refs 9 and 11 line up with what they cite in the article. Other non-english sources accepted in good faith.

On hold Pending a few fixes. —Ed!^(talk) 03:36, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Good work, all, passing for GA now. —Ed!^(talk) 01:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

CE

Cheeky little ce, couldn't find any missing isbns due to language but auto ed, tidied citations found some sfns with |p=|pp=No–No and rm p=. RV as preferred.Keith-264 (talk) 16:28, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Sources

For the A-class source review, I have included the information that I have found on the sources I used, to help editors unfamiliar with the area below. I will note that Russian military history literature is sparse on inline citations.

• Сборник приказов РВСР, РВС СССР, НКО и Указов Президиума Верховного Совета СССР о награждении орденами СССР частей, соединениий и учреждений ВС СССР. Часть I. 1920–1944 гг. - A collection of orders for the award of decorations to units issued by the Soviet MoD. Used only to cite basic fact that division received awards.
• Cherushev, Nikolai Semyonovich; Cherushev, Yury Nikolaevich (2012). Расстрелянная элита РККА (командармы 1-го и 2-го рангов, комкоры, комдивы и им равные): 1937–1941. Биографический словарь (Kuchkovo Pole) - Biographical dictionary drawn from official personnel records in the Soviet archives, as stated in introduciton. No inline citations, used to cite command dates. The work of Nikolai Cherushev, a retired Colonel, has received some positive attention in the Western world, see [1], [2]. In particular, Peter Whitewood, in a footnote to his book The Red Army and the Great Terror: Stalin's Purge of the Soviet Military (University Press of Kansas, 2015), pointed readers to Cherushev's book 1937 god for a comprehensive examination of how the military-fascist plot was put together by political police. page 290, on Project MUSE
  • Kuchkovo Pole is a military history publisher, books they have published are relatively often cited in English works, mostly for their document collections on Soviet military intelligence - [3]. David Glantz translated entries from their Army commanders biographical dictionary for his biographical sketches in To The Gates of Stalingrad[4].
• Coox, Alvin D. (1990) [1985]. Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia, 1939 - Academic overview of Khalkhin Gol published by Stanford Univeristy Press. Academic reviews: [5], [6]. Somewhat dated by the release of portions of the Soviet archives, but he integrated what was available at the time with Japanese sources. Used to cite that actions of the division at Khalkhin Gol. Kges1901 (talk) 09:57, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Drig, Yevgeny, 2000s websites on Soviet mechanized units: Used to cite unit history and composition details. Drig used documents from archives, and is a published author on the subject of mechanized corps who is cited quite heavily by Glantz. In Barbarossa Derailed, Glantz refers readers to Drig's book for further details on the mechanized corps.[7]
• Dvoinykh, L. V.; Kariaeva, T. F.; Stegantsev, M. V., eds. (1993). Центральный государственный архив Советской армии - Published by Eastview, American publisher that specializes in Soviet documents. This is a guide to the Russian State Military Archive, the former Central State Archive of the Soviet Army. It includes summaries drawn from the documents in the archive. Used to cite unit history details.
• Feskov, V. I.; Golikov, V. I.; Kalashnikov, K. A.; Slugin, S. A. (2013). Вооруженные силы СССР после Второй Мировой войны: от Красной Армии к Советской - Published by Tomsk based Scientific and Technical Literature, which generally publishes medical books [8]. Tomsk State University may have assisted with research or publication.[9]. Usage example in Western literature for Feskov book: [10]. Used to cite disband date and a few postwar details.
• Grylev, A. N. (1970). "Перечень № 5. III. Мотострелковые и моторизованные дивизии" - Official Soviet MoD list of unit components, used to cite unit composition. Kges1901 (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Gurkin, V. V.; et al. (1972). Боевой состав Советской армии: Часть III (Январь–декабрь 1943 г.) - Soviet MoD order of battle, used to cite unit assignment. Kges1901 (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Kolomiets, Maxim (2002). "Бои у реки Халхин-Гол, май-сентябрь 1939 года" - Kolomiets writes books about tanks and works as a researcher at the Central Museum of the Armed Forces. He does not have inline refs, but in bibliography includes archive documents as well as English and Russian works. Steven Zaloga says his works are an excellent source.[11]
• Main Personnel Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Soviet Union (1964). Командование корпусного и дивизионного звена советских вооруженных сил периода Великой Отечественной войны 1941–1945 гг - Official MoD list of unit commanders during the war. Used to cite commanders and approximate dates of command. Kges1901 (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Shkadov, Ivan, ed. (1987). Герои Советского Союза: краткий биографический словарь - Published by Soviet MoD publisher Voenizdat, a biographical dictionary of Heroes of the Soviet Union. Used only to cite basic fact of Hero of the Soviet Union award to one member of the division.
• Tsapayev and Vozhakin biographical dictionaries published by Kuchkovo Pole - See note about Kuchkovo Pole under Cherushev.
• Zvyagintsev, Vyacheslav (2005). Трибунал для героев - Used to cite information about one division commander being arrested. Zvyagintsev uses archival documents as sources. This book is cited in Robert Conquest's additional select bibliography in his book on the Great Terror [12]. OLMA Press publishes general literature, some google books cites to works they published [13].
• Lazarev and Pogodin report on Manchurian campaign - The report of the division commander and chief of staff on the actions of the division in Manchuria. I consider this akin to using a Western unit war diary or after action report. The reason for my usage of this source is that detailed coverage of the division specifically is not available in secondary sources. If this source is not used the section would be referring to 6th Guards Tank Army-specific actions instead of division-specific actions. Kges1901 (talk) 10:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Kges1901 (talk) 09:57, 12 August 2018 (UTC)