Talk:42 cm Gamma howitzer

Not in service in WWI ?

The article says it was not used in World War I. Then shouldn't it be removed from the German WWI artillery template, and also have the WWI artillery category removed ? As it stands now there is a conflict.Rcbutcher (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it spent the war on Krupp's proving ground. But since it existed during the war and could have been used had they felt like it, I think that it should remain as is. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

42 cm Kusten-Kanone Modell 1886

Krupp also exhibited a big gun at the 1889 Paris exhibition, but I'm not sure which one it was. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 05:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I was wrong about that, they displayed a large gun in 1867 in Paris (and also in 1876 in Philadelphia--a 14 inch one), and were criticized by the French for their "solely nationalist" exhibition. So, in 1889 in Paris they didn't display any guns. Apparently this was only a temporary restraint for when the expo was on French soil; they saved money for the Chicago exhibition (just kidding, but this 1983 show seems to have cost Krupp one million dollars) where they apparently hoped to get new customers, and apparently did get some, but Latin American ones. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 05:41, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

They also had a 40 cm 80 ton gun exhibited earlier in 1880 at Dusseldorf. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 05:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Mörser?

This title isn't clear and unnecessarily uses the German word "Mörser", which is not easily recognisable as "mortar" which is the English word. We WP:USEENGLISH. It should be at 42 cm Gamma mortar. There is the other question about whether, like Big Bertha, this is technically a howitzer rather than a mortar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:42 cm Gamma Mörser/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 23:37, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Infobox
The elevation and traverse don't appear to be anywhere in the article. Deleted the reference to a "traverse", because I'm pretty sure such a thing is impossible with this behemoth, and added prose to "Design and production" to support the infobox. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:02, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• Any reason Krupp AG is used here rather than simply Krupp in the infobox?
  • Not that I can recall. I've gone ahead and shortened to just "Krupp" in the lead as well. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• then used by the Imperial German Army in Belgium, France, Poland, and Serbia. — This is a pretty cursory summary of the article's longest section.
  • I've extended this a bit without going and naming the particular engagements Gamma guns were involved in. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Personally I think it could use some further expansion, but I won't press the point. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
• it was a Bettungsgeschütz (bedding gun) — This isn't in the body of the article.
  •  Removed as gratuitous German. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• only ten were built. — Is this anywhere in the body of the article?
  • No, but I've gone and fixed that. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Development and design

an arms race between artillery and military architecture — I'm not sure "arms race" is the correct term here, since it seems only one (artillery) is a type of arms, whereas the other (architecture) was more defense oriented. Replace "arms race between" with "rapid advancements in". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) the Beta-Gerät ... the Beta-Gerät 09 ... the Gamma-Gerät — Worth red links? Maybe, maybe not. They saw limited use during the war. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Helmuth von Moltke the Younger, now Chief of the General Staff — What year is this? 1906; added with citation. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) There's general inconsistency in this section between unabbreviated meters, centimetres, and metric tons, and abbreviated feet, inches, and tons. That is a consequence of Template:Convert. I used the |abbr= parameter to avoid clutter. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Then, a 25 metric tons (25 t) rail-mounted gantry crane unloaded and used to assemble all seven — and was used? Yes;  Fixed along with a couple other grammar hiccups. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Any reason why M-Gerät "Big Bertha" isn't mentioned beyond the chart? Well, the article's not about the Bertha, but I've added a sentence about the influence of the Gamma on the Berthas to this section. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Ammunition

(Armour-piercing) ... (High-explosive) ... (Intermediate) — Any reason these are capitalized? No;  Fixed now. I've also removed the German names for these shell types, too. ensuring a gradient in their quality — What does this mean? Just that ammunition produced in earlier runs was noticeably better? Yes. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) As a result, crews were required to disembark from the gun before firing. — Well that's a mark of confidence. Any word on how the trigger mechanism worked (i.e., how was it that they were able to fire it remotely)? A very long string, as it turns out (no length specified). Added now. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Service history
Any reason for the non-sequential numbering (1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 11)? Was it that other batteries (3, 5, 6, 7, 10) existed, but without this weapon? Yes. The German Army couldn't uniformly equip the siege batteries, so some of them got Gammas and others got Berthas. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

World War I

• Héronfontaine, Cerfontaine ... Fort de Wavre-Sainte-Catherine — Worth red links?
  • Absolutely worth them, but I couldn't find other-language wikis to link them to. I generally hate contributing to backlogs like WP:Requested Articles. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I get the disinclination, and certainly, red links aren't required for this review. I tend to think of them as more useful than anything, though—I see red links as a) indicating that the subject is notable even if it doesn't have an article, b) providing suggestions to others about articles to create, and c) providing reminders to me (for the red links I created) for what articles I might be interested in going back and creating. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• was sent to reduce the city — What does this mean?
  • To bomb it into submission. I've changed "reduce" to "capture".
• because the artillery had no spotters — Does this mean that they were firing blind?
  • Correct. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Any reason battery 11 isn't mentioned?
  • Romanych & Rupp mention the battery only once, when it was formed in 1916.

World War II

A single Gamma-Gerät survived World War I and its aftermath, disassembled and hidden in Krupp's Meppen facilities. — Any more information on this? In general, this is a pretty cursory section. Is any further information about the one gun or its use known? Not in my primary source, unfortunately. When I was writing this article, I could not find or access anything I thought credible for the article.

References
Donnell 2013: ISBN could be hyphenated.  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Any reason for not adding publisher locations? I don't include publisher locations to save on total article size. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Further reading
Not a huge deal, but citation templates could be used for these. That would avoid the inconsistencies like these being "first name last name" rather than the "last name, first name" references above.  Done. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 02:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Drive-by comment

The issue of the article title I have identified above should be included in this GAN. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:31, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, copying your comment here, since it only appears on the talk page (not in the GAN page itself, which is transcluded). Also, given that you undoubtedly have a deeper knowledge about this area, any other suggestions you have for the article?

• Mörser? This title isn't clear and unnecessarily uses the German word "Mörser", which is not easily recognisable as "mortar" which is the English word. We WP:USEENGLISH. It should be at 42 cm Gamma mortar. There is the other question about whether, like Big Bertha, this is technically a howitzer rather than a mortar. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

• I'm happy to leave it to you, Usernameunique, but I just recommend that this is resolved before passing it, but the actual move should take place after passing so that it doesn't stuff up the GAN review page and syntax. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• I agree to this. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 18:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• Sounds good, Vami_IV. Generally speaking, I'm a bit confused by the various names in the article. There's "kurze Marinekanone," which seems to be the official name. There's "Gamma-Gerät," which seems to be a nickname. And then there's Gamma Mörser, which appears in the title, the first sentence, the link to commons, and nowhere else. What's the relationship between the names? For that matter, what does "Gamma" mean? --Usernameunique (talk) 19:41, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Kurze Marinekanone" is indeed the official army designation for the gun. "Gamma-Gerät" is the name used by Romanych and Rupp; "Gamma" is the third character of the Greek alphabet and follows Beta, the second, and "Gerät" is "device". "Mörser" is "mortar" and the use of this word in the title and the Commons category are from before my time. I've removed the "Gamma Mörser" in the lead. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 06:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for the explanation, Vami_IV. I've just passed the article, and (once legobot runs in a few minutes) will move it to the new name. Could you please change the first line to reflect the new article title? (I would keep the German name somewhere, perhaps in parenthesis.) --Usernameunique (talk) 06:16, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks like legobot is taking some time. I'll check again later. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Mörser doesn't mean mortar in German military terminology, despite whatever dictionaries might say. It means howitzer. I'm not sure of the distinction between Mörser and Haubitze drawn by the Germans, but it existed. The German word for mortar is Granatwerfer (literally shell/grenade-thrower). One remaining issue that I see is that some of the German words in the text are not italicized. To facilitate text-to-audio readers, please format them as {{lang|de|XXXXX}}.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Sturmvogel 66, are you suggesting that 42 cm Gamma howitzer is the appropriate place for this? Also pinging Vami_IV and Peacemaker67. --Usernameunique (talk) 12:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the most common name is since this is such an obscure weapon; I suppose using its official (code)name would be fine. I mostly wanted to correct you on the definition of Mörser. I created the article under its current name because that's what Gander and Chamberlain used.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the overarching requirement is "use English" in this case, so Mörser needs to be translated because no-one not familiar with German will have any clue what the article is about, and will not search for this article using the word. Ian Hogg's German Artillery of World War Two glossary says Mörser=howitzer [1], so I reckon that's pretty definitive. The high-angle characteristics of these weapons also support a move to howitzer. So, my view is it should be at 42 cm Gamma howitzer. There are other articles titled Mörser which also need to be moved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Overall

• Vami_IV, comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:35, 27 May 2020 (UTC)