Talk:2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Can we keep the mutli-hatnote?

I find the structure of articles on this topic to be somewhat confusing, and I imagine many a lay reader is confused as well. I understand that Wikipedia is not US-centric, and I don't want it to be, but these campus protests have been a US-centric event. The US protests have been the most significant and numerous, and started the movement. I personally have clicked through to the List of Protests article when trying to read about or edit some more obscure detail about the US protests, only to find that they aren't included in the regular list and have their own article. I find that counterintuitive because this is ultimately a US-centric event. I imagine many readers have done the same. The multi-hatnote allows the reader to understand up front how the child articles on this topic are organized so they can get where they need to go with less confusion. Unbandito (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Could this be addressed by some kind of sidebar or small navbox under the infobox? WP:HATNOTEs are ideally limited to one and hatnote over use can just make the whole thing confusing in another way. See WP:HATCHEAP. Kire1975 (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a hatnote at the top of the List of protests for U.S. protests, which should make it clear enough. I realise it means two clicks to get to that content, but otherwise it's linked in the first line of the lead, as well as in the list of countries in infobox. I don't think we should have a hatnote for U.S. protests as well, without having one for Netherlands and California (list of protests), which would be excessive. The fact the U.S. protests have been the most significant isn't much of a reason to have a hatnote for them imo, as that article is now a grandchild of this one (a child of List of protests), and not a child of this article. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975 I don't see anything in WP:HATCHEAP about limiting a hatnote to one link, but some kind of navbox is something I would compromise on if you all feel strongly about limiting the hatnote. WP:HATCHEAP says:

"2. Removing a hatnote will not save database memory. Only remove hatnotes that are a net negative for readers.

3. Do remove hatnotes that are:

misleading

confusing

needlessly astonishing"

I don't see this hatnote fitting any of that criteria.

@CommunityNotesContributor I don't think the US article should be considered a proper grandchild article, even if it is considered one under the structure of Wikipedia. Practically speaking, the List article was split in two, because there is roughly the same amount of coverage of protests in the US as there is in the entire rest of the world. In fact, the US article is almost 3x longer than its "parent"! This is clearly a US-centric event that warrants making it easy to navigate to a page with more detail about protests in the US. Furthermore, the parent List article is misleadingly titled because it gives no indication that it's about protests everywhere except in the US. I don't see a problem with that, since I can't think of an alternative title that isn't *too* US-centric, but I think that many readers will click the hatnote link expecting to find US protests, and a double hatnote can make sure everyone gets where they are trying to go on the first click. Unbandito (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:HATCHEAP says "Do not add hatnotes for their own sake." If the purpose can be achieved with a sidebar navbox, then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. These lists are very long.

Don't ignore what was said about WP:HATNOTE: "Ideally, limit hatnotes to just one at the top of the page or section. Multiple hatnotes may be appropriate when they serve different purposes, such as disambiguating topics with similar names and explaining redirects." Multiple hatnotes in this case would all serve the same purpose. Kire1975 (talk) 06:38, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

That's right, "Multiple hatnotes may be appropriate when they serve different purposes, such as disambiguating topics with similar names and explaining redirects." Seems to apply perfectly to this situation. I'm totally open to the idea of a navbox, but I don't know how to make one or what it would look like. All I feel strongly about is that the reader should be able to cleanly (in one click, without skimming this page) navigate to at least a summary of any specific protest they're looking for from this page. If you're able to make a navbox, that would be great. Otherwise I'll probably add the multi-hatnote unless a strong objection is raised. Unbandito (talk) 03:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Request to add sniper photograph to 'Police response' section

I request this photograph is added as a reference for the "long-ranged firearms" part of the 'police response' section in the article. This is a photograph of the sniper at The Ohio State University mentioned in the article.

File:OSU Gaza Solidarity Encampment Sniper.png

Officer on the Ohio Union aiming sniper at protesters at the Ohio State University Gaza Solidarity Encampment on April 25, 2024.

2024_pro-Palestinian_protests_on_university_campuses#Violence — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlineone22 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

a reference? or do you mean used as a photo in the article? User:Sawerchessread (talk) 02:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I would primarily like to use this photo in the article.

As a secondary addition, we could theoretically link the photo in the form of a citation (such that clicking would redirect you to this photo's location in the article) right after the sentence:

"According to student newspaper The Lantern, state troopers with 'long-range firearms' were deployed at Ohio State University."

But I'm not too hellbent on making sure the link is added since those are pretty difficult to implement in my experience.

Onlineone22 (talk) 03:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I personally think that this photograph seems relevant to add to the context of this article, but what is the source for it? It needs to be reliable. David A (talk) 03:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I personally took this photograph at the event. I can send an email releasing copyright perms to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org if you believe this is necessary.

Onlineone22 (talk) 03:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I just sent the copyright email to VRT!

Onlineone22 (talk) 03:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Added. Kire1975 (talk) 03:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Onlineone22 (talk) 04:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Requesting assistance editing Ohio State University protest article.

I recently created a related article detailing the college protests at Ohio State University. After this article was made extended-protected, I lost my ability to edit the article because I do not have EP permissions. Substantial details are missing from this article, so until I regain my permissions, I have been adding suggestions to the talk page of this article. But no one has been implementing my suggestions on the talk page, despite the fact they are supported by multiple sources and add significant missing details from the article.

If members of this community could please visit the talk page of this article and implement my requested changes, this would be deeply appreciated. Thank you!

Onlineone22 (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

"More than 3,100 pro-Palestinian protesters arrested in spring — but many charges dropped: report"

This looks like an important follow-up on the protests. Is the College Fix reputable or do we need another source? [1]https://www.thecollegefix.com/more-than-3100-pro-palestinian-student-protesters-arrested-in-spring-but-many-charges-dropped-report/ Collegemeltdown2 (talk) 20:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

We need a more reliable source. I recently saw 3,000 referenced by RS but didn't get round to updating the article. CNC (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Done Not sure how you were trying to cite NYT with this edit [2], but have now added per this edit.[3] CNC (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Intro is not correct

The protests did not start with mass arrests at Columbia. It started on October 7 in support of Hamas (with chants like “resistance is justified when people are occupied”). Encampments on college campuses started at Columbia in response to a congressional hearing to address antisemitism on college campuses in the wake of the October 7 massacre (several months after the massacre). The intro is incorrect and very misleading. 153.176.57.145 (talk) 11:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Where does it say that the protests started at Columbia University? The lede says they escalated there. In the body it mentions other protests and occupations. Collegemeltdown2 (talk) 20:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

It is misleading to leave out that the Columbia protest (in which initial arrests were made) was in response to a congressional hearing on antisemitism about earlier large protests in support of the October 7 massacre at Columbia and elsewhere. It is not even clear that protests were larger after the congressional hearing, just that encampments started to be erected. To start the article implying that substantial protests only really started after “arrested made at Columbia” is not correct. It also leaves out what shocked most people and the viral congregational hearing, the large support for the October 7 massacre. While their were many students who protested Israel’s military campaign (particularly after the congressional hearing), there was also a large portion protesting in support of Hamas, and that should be mentioned. I can include numerous news paper articles from right after October 7 to show the college protests were large then. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 05:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources? EvergreenFir (talk) 05:49, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/nyregion/columbia-university-israel-hamas-protests.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/columbia-university-palestine-sjp-protest/tnamp/

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/04/us/us-students-impacted-by-israel-hamas-war

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/dueling-rallies-face-off-in-washington-square-park-in-support-of-israelis-palestinians/4777333/?amp=1

https://www.foxnews.com/media/cornell-professor-leave-remarks-about-exhilarating-hamas-attack-history-incendiary-rhetoric.amp

I can also include sources to the congressional hearing, which directly cite protests and antisemitic incidents. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 06:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Request to change Intro to including congressional hearing

The intro should include that the protest at Columbia (which lead to initial arrests) was in response to a congressional antisemitism hearing. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html 71.179.129.209 (talk) 11:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The lead is very long and the page does not mention in the body that the protests was in response to the congressional antisemitism. Per MOS:INTRO: The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. The article itself is not in the body and it doesn't even say that either. It draws a correlation between the hearing and alleged antisemitism, but it doesn't make a connection. Kire1975 (talk) 12:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this sentence is the most problematic: “The escalation began after mass arrests at the Columbia University campus occupation, led by anti-Zionist groups, in which protesters demanded the university's disinvestment from Israel over its alleged genocide of Palestinians.” The source (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/who-are-some-people-groups-involved-us-college-protests-2024-04-28/) said student groups praised “Palestinian armed resistance” and mentions the congressional hearing. Nowhere in the source does it say the protests were in response to divestment or allegations of genocide. An article about recent college protests over the Israel-Hamas war should at least have some mention of support for Hamas (“Palestinian armed resistance”) at these protests and the congressional hearing. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

That’s one source that talks about CUAD more in general, ever since the start of the war.

The other source isn’t used. Also, please use WP:EDITREQUEST and the template there, as it makes it easier to answer these. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I apologize, I am new to the Wikipedia editing process. I came across this Wikipedia article that seems to have glaring omissions. It mentions arrests without mentioning the congressional hearing or alleged support for Hamas. It does not even mention the October 7 massacre that initiated the protests in 2023. These omissions appear to paint the protests in a more positive light rather than being objective. I do not have a specific request, just that additional pertinent details be added (such as the congressional hearing, alleged support for “Palestinian armed resistance”/Hamas by some at these protests, etc.). 71.179.129.209 (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

So many citations in the lead

As of today, there are seventy (70) citations in the WP:LEAD of this page. Twenty-six of these articles are not even mentioned in the body.

Per WP:CITELEAD, Because the lead usually repeats information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Although the presence of citations in the lead is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article, there is no exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.

While this is certainly a "Complex, current, [and] controversial subject", can we clean this up a bit and make it an accessible overview as required by MOS:INTRO instead of the mess that it is? Kire1975 (talk) 12:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

the section also states “ The verifiability policy states that all quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it.”

I think since this entire topic is inherently contentious, it may be better to leave inline citations in and just work on shortening the lede more. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

How to confirm that all 70 are likely to be challenged? The primary complaint is that 26 are in the lead but not in the body. Kire1975 (talk) 01:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Edan On ... LA County declines to charge man recorded attacking pro-Palestine protesters at UCLA

Edit ...

LA County declines to charge man recorded attacking pro-Palestine protesters at UCLA, refers case to city attorney’s office

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/21/us/edan-on-ucla-palestine-encampment-attack/index.html 76.156.161.247 (talk) 03:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

already in 2024_University_of_California,_Los_Angeles_pro-Palestinian_campus_occupation#Legal_proceedings Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

More in the Response Section

I am still waiting for my edit requesting the congressional hearing be added, and I think this incident https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/newyork/news/columbia-university-official-nyc-home-vandalized-with-red-paint-nazi-and-hamas-symbols/ should also be added to the response section. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 04:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Request to include OSU Undergraduate Student Government scandal in Controversies/Administrative Response section

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I request we add this to the 'Controversies/Administrative Response' section of this article:

On March 25, 2024, Ohio State University's Undergraduate Student Government (USG) proposed an initiative urging OSU to divest from companies profiting from human rights violations. The initiative received 1247 signatures, surpassing the required 1000.^[1] However, USG's Judicial Panel nullified it, citing invalid signatures allegedly due to petition dissemination on Instagram. OSU Students for Justice in Palestine claimed unfair targeting, alleging other candidates used similar methods without penalty. Leaked emails revealed pressure from Hillel International to veto the initiative, prompting accusations of "abuse of power" and leading to resignations of three USG justices.^[2]

Note: This section and edit request was created by Onlineone22 via multiple different edits. Originating edit was [4]. —Sirdog (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done: Request has remained unactioned for quite some time and requestor is a sockpuppet. Closing out for queue management purposes. —Sirdog (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

^ "OSU Divests initiative removed from USG ballot despite 1,000 signatures due to alleged bylaw violations". The Lantern. March 2024. Retrieved June 9, 2024.
^ "University pauses vote on USG divestment ballot initiative". The Lantern. March 2024. Retrieved June 9, 2024.

Request to include congressional hearing

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change “The escalation began after mass arrests at the Columbia University campus occupation, led by anti-Zionist groups, in which protesters demanded the university's disinvestment from Israel over its alleged genocide of Palestinians.” to “The escalation began after a congressional hearing on antisemitism alleged that there was support of “Palestinian Armed Resistance” (Hamas) and harassment against Jewish students at Columbia University and other colleges in response to the Israel-Hamas war. The protest resulted in mass arrests at the Columbia University campus occupation, led by pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist groups, in which protesters demanded the university's disinvestment from Israel over its alleged genocide of Palestinians.” as that is more in line with the source (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/who-are-some-people-groups-involved-us-college-protests-2024-04-28/). 71.179.129.209 (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

You still haven't addressed the issue that the article talks more about CUAD instead of the protest. Also, many protest wikipedia pages usually start with what the protest is about, not an immediate jump into the controversy.

see George_Floyd_protests, they talk about some of the controversy by the third paragraph.

Proposal To Include Congressional Hearing

Proposed Change:

Hello Everyone. I would like to propose the change of “The escalation began after mass arrests at the Columbia University campus occupation, led by anti-Zionist groups, in which protesters demanded the university's disinvestment from Israel over its alleged genocide of Palestinians.” to “The escalation began after a congressional hearing on antisemitism alleged that there was support of “Palestinian Armed Resistance” (Hamas) and harassment against Jewish students at Columbia University and other colleges in response to the Israel-Hamas war. The protest resulted in mass arrests at the Columbia University campus occupation, led by pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist groups, in which protesters demanded the university's disinvestment from Israel over its alleged genocide of Palestinians.”

Rational:

This better matches the current source (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/who-are-some-people-groups-involved-us-college-protests-2024-04-28/), and matches what I believe is a more appropriate sources (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/14/us/columbia-president-nemat-shafik-resigns.html). Additionally, the Wiki article starts by the arrests at Columbia without saying what they were protesting, i.e. the congressional hearing on antisemitism (which perhaps they felt misrepresented their views or overemphasized antisemitic and pro-Hamas incidents) and Israel’s campaign in Gaza in the wake of the October 7 Hamas attack. Without the reader already having additional knowledge of the protests, this article is not self contained and does not provide appropriate links to other pertinent articles.

Feedback:

I am open to feedback of how else to include this information, so please let me know if you would like to suggest different phrasing. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 20:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

[:1-1] "OSU Divests initiative removed from USG ballot despite 1,000 signatures due to alleged bylaw violations". The Lantern. March 2024. Retrieved June 9, 2024.

[2] "University pauses vote on USG divestment ballot initiative". The Lantern. March 2024. Retrieved June 9, 2024.

[1]

[2]