Talk:2021 South African unrest

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A news item involving 2021 South African unrest was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 14 July 2021.

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Merge to 2021 South African unrest

The "2021 South African unrest" as opposed to 2021 Zuma protests, is a more fitting title, as the protests have changed from being Zuma-related to opportunity-related looting and rioting. Much of this is still unfolding. --Manor5 (talk) 21:08, 12 July 2021 (SAST)

I agree with the merge of the article, due to the fact the the current events are not fully based of the imprisonment of former President Jacob Zuma TapticInfo (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the 2021 Zuma protests article should definitely be merged into this one. It started out as protests in support of former president Zuma and now it has just transformed into looting/rioting/destruction, etc. LefcentrerightDiscuss 20:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah,we basically have two identical articles and a merger would fill in the gaps Scaramouche33 (talk) 06:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone believes that these riots are for those other reasons. They are deluding themselves. The real reason is Zuma , his uneducated and radical black supporters and his family . Look at SA history of being racist to other races in terms of their BEE and AA policies. All of this combined is an organized plot for Zuma to gain freedom despite his crimes and Zuma supporters who want things for free but won't work. Hpdh4 (talk) 10:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Causes

As of 16 July, the president has labelled the action as insurrection. Listing the causes as poverty, joblessness and COVID-19 does not paint the full picture of the forces behind the riots. I suggest adding these as fuelling factors, resulting in additional people joining the riots and not the root cause. The root cause was an insurrection in response to the arrest of Jacob Zuma JimmyUCT 13:50, 16 July 2021.

As per reliable source:

Please do not revert without consensus. Ear-phone (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ear-phone: Respecting your request to first disscuss before reverting....Do you mind explaing why incitement in not a valid cause? We have Zuma's own daugther trying to doing it ^[2] ^[3] including various other entities calling for the continuation of the looting and violence. I mean hashtags on twitter literily reads: #ShutdownSA, #ShutdownKZN, not #LetsEndPoverty. The president himself ask for the speading of these messages on social media to stop. I'm not denying other factors, just saying incitement is definetly also one. Anyone else is free to weigh in so this isn't a "I say - He say" thing. PubliusPretoria (talk) 13:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@PubliusPretoria:. In the article's body, there is a section on incitement which is downstream to the causes. I hope this claries the distinction between primary (causes) and secondary (contributory) factors? Ear-phone (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ear-phone: No you are right, I didn't see it that way. Thanks for clarifying PubliusPretoria (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

"Parole" or not

The following content in the "State response" section is contradictory.

As a result of the decision, Zuma is required to remain in prison until he is at least eligible for parole in three months. ... Parole is a mechanism for prisoners serving criminal sentences to be released early. Since Jacob Zuma was not convicted of a crime, but incarcerated in terms of a civil sanction, parole is not possible.

It looks like a sort of edit-war being held right in the page. Seems like the discussion should happen here, rather than making contradictory edits on the page. Sanpitch (talk) 20:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At least partially resolved with addition of reference to the relevant minister's comments regarding parole eligibility.

According to a CNN article, Zuma "turned himself in to authorities to serve a 15-month jail term for contempt of court. He had refused to appear at an anti-corruption commission to face several allegations, including bribery and fraud, which he has repeatedly denied." See https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/13/africa/south-africa-violence-protests-intl/index.html It sounds like parole relates to the contempt of court conviction, not for the other allegations which no conviction has been entered. I hope this clarifies the confusion. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:36, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is correct. The recent comments regarding parole relate to the contempt of court conviction. Other legal proceedings are still pending.

Unsourced content

Hello. @NotThatZuma:. Please may you source your content. @Futur3g4ry:. Ear-phone (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Currency conversation

Is it good practice to convert the billions of rand into dollars and pounds, or is that now deprecated? I've not seen it as a device here for a while so I may have missed the change. Just wondering if the sole use of Rand might need "translating" into other values to help readers from outside SA. I understand this may not be something we do these days, mind. doktorb _words^deeds 23:18, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think putting both values as in rands and then the dollars in brackets next to it would be a better option TapticInfo (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we look to WP:$, it states that articles should use the currency of the subject country for country specific articles. I believe that this article is country specific and one should just use the Rand. Finding out the conversation of Rand to dollars or pounds can quickly be done by a search on the internet. Jurisdicta (talk) 04:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Map of N3 Highway

Does anyone have a better map of the N3 Highway? The current one seems to be drawn on MS paint and therefore may not be accurate Scaramouche33 (talk) 17:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Scaramouche33: I’ll redraw another map soon, that map was kinda just rushed. TapticInfo (talk) 21:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More images?

If possible, having multiple images in the infobox would bloom great. If anyone can upload any pictures to commons that are licensed correctly, this would improve the article greatly. TapticInfo (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have uploaded one photo that I took of bare shelves at a Spar in Randburg, Johannesburg. It's not directly related to the riots but panic buying and the supply chain being affected are some of the ripple effects of the ongoing events. You can view said picture here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SAUnrestPanicBuying.jpg Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 16:17, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aleksandar Bulovic': That's great. if anyone can get images of actual protests that would be great. Only if you have them and they are your copy right property. Do not specificaly go into the protests for images and media for commons. TapticInfo (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please add "Category:2021 South African unrest" to media related on commons. TapticInfo (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Black First Land First party involvement

The Black First Land First party have declared their support for the pro-Zuma protests. The proof is in their own website: https://black1stland1st.wordpress.com/2021/07/10/blf-calls-for-national-shutdown-until-president-zuma-is-released-and-other-demands-are-met/ Hu753 (talk) 04:50, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Hu753: Hi, I noticed that this website is a Wordpress website under the main domain. This does not look like a reliable source. If you can find a more reliable one please place it below. TapticInfo (talk) 09:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Parties to civil conflict

If a political party condemns violence, etc. does it automatically mean they are classified as a party to the conflict? Or does this refer to those directly involved in the conflict? Please do not revert without discussion. Ear-phone (talk) 10:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ear-phone:, Its more political parties that are actively involved in the conflict. ie. the parties who are currently taking initiative such as filing law suits or one involved in the conflict.

ANC (Pro-Zuma Factions) - Conflict Cause

EFF - Addition To Conflict Cause and Lawsuit against ANC For Deployment of the army (SANDF)

ANC (Government) - Deploying The army and current party in Power

DA - Lawsuit against ANC (Zuma's Children/Pro-Zuma Factions) aswell as EFF

Action SA - Lawsuit against Ramaphosa on ProZuma

Freedom Front Plus - Fighting For deployment of 75,000 Soilders in Gauteng and KZN

@Ear-phone: I think we should add the political parties back TapticInfo (talk) 12:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TapticInfo: Thank you. Who or how does one decide on which side of the conflict a political party is? No original research is permitted on Wikipedia. E.g. one would need to interpret what it means to support not deploying the army e.g. prevent possible civilian casualties? On which side is attempting to prevent civilian casualties classified? There are pros and cons to deploying the army, which is not indicative of being on one side or the other. Ear-phone (talk) 12:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ear-phone: That depends. I think we can break it down to pro protests including pro-Zuma factions and the EFF and and anti protests including the ANC, DA, etc

@Ear-phone:@TapticInfo: I came across two articles where Carl Niehaus and Andile Lungisa are claimed to be among those leading the movement to free Zuma - would it be apt to list them in the box as party to the conflict?

Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 18:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aleksandar Bulovic': I think both can be added to the list if @Ear-phone: agrees. Still not sure if they are notable enough

@TapticInfo: @Aleksandar Bulovic':. From the linked articles, "“Let us be crystal clear; we do not support violence. Our principled opposition against the long-time prosecution and now political imprisonment of President Zuma has always been peaceful and within the confines of the law. We have never called for lawlessness and violence.”"..^[1] From this qoute, one would conclude they are opposed to the unrest which this article is about. The protests were decentralized which is acknowledged in the links e.g. "“That frustration has boiled over,” he said. “No-one must be disingenuous enough to try and blame me, the MKMVA or anyone else.”"^[2] Ear-phone (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Link three - https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/south-africa/2021-07-12-its-sad-but-we-warned-the-anc-carl-niehaus-weighs-in-on-fiery-protests/ "He maintained the association was not behind the protests nor the criminal activities."

References

^ Ngatane, Nthakoana. "Free Jacob Zuma Campaign gives Ramaphosa 14 days to release him from prison". ewn.co.za. Retrieved 2021-07-16.
^ https://www.timeslive.co.za/authors/paul-ash. "Free Jacob Zuma campaign vows to continue protests until former president is released". TimesLIVE. Retrieved 2021-07-16. {{cite web}}: External link in |last= (help)

Infobox

Hey all, hope we are staying safe and well and warm. I noticed that the info box is now missing the parties to conflict as well as number of arrests and pictures. I know the pictures were removed for a good reason but is the other information invalid? Ta. Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aleksandar Bulovic': Apparently the infobox is not supposed to work that way, but there is also a current discussion on distinguishing which side parties are on. TapticInfo (talk) 09:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Flag salad in quotefarm "reactions" section

As you may know, many editors despise the use of flagicons in a list format of quotes in these reactions sections. The quotes are often little more than politicians giving lip service, and are often sourced to tweets or other primary sources. This reactions section should be trimmed. Abductive (reasoning) 15:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

End date

There is no Wp:RS that says it ended on July 17, the article itself has noted with the support of WP:RS that the protests happened till July 18. Dilbaggg (talk) 03:37, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "South Africa struggles to contain worst unrest in decades". www.ft.com. Retrieved 2021-07-13.

[2] ttps://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2021-07-13-duduzile-zuma-sambudla-from-pampered-diamond-queen-to-armchair-instigator-of-violence/

[3] ttps://thesouthafrican.com/news/breaking-news-riots-updates-duduzile-zuma-sambudla-who-is-zumas-daughter/

[4] Ngatane, Nthakoana. "Free Jacob Zuma Campaign gives Ramaphosa 14 days to release him from prison". ewn.co.za. Retrieved 2021-07-16.

[5] ttps://www.timeslive.co.za/authors/paul-ash. "Free Jacob Zuma campaign vows to continue protests until former president is released". TimesLIVE. Retrieved 2021-07-16. {{cite web}}: External link in |last= (help)

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