Portal talk:North Macedonia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Macedonia, understand once and for all that such blatant changes will not go unnoticed. You are being watched under microscope my friend. FunkyFly 17:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Language

I have reverted the portal text to the version by telex because it better represents the linguistic situation in the country. Contrary to the claims by macedonia, Albanian is considered to be a major language in the country (BBC), and is used in local government in municipalities with substantial Albanian population. TheArchon 17:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the portal text to the version by aldux. The Albanian name of the country is not irrelevant, because it is used by approximately 1/5 of the local population, and has been used in local government since November 2001. TheArchon09:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats right, 1/5 not 1/2, and its only used in LOCAL government ONLY in places where Albanians live, which is obviously not the whole country. Macedonia 21:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Even less people speak German in Belgium, but German is an official language there. Albanian IS used for the whole country and ALL legislation and official goings on are translated into Albanian - hence, the Albanian name stays. Telex 21:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Keep dreaming, here are some links to help you understand Albanian is not used offically like how you think it is:

[1] Government of the Republic of Macedonia (no Albanian versian)

[2] ASSEMBLY OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA (no Albanian versian)

[3] PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA (no Albanian versian)

[4] MINISTRY OF INTERIOR (no Albanian versian)

[5] MINISTRY OF CULTURE (no Albanian versian)

[6] MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (no Albanian versian)

[7] MINISTRY OF LOCAL SELF-GOVERNMENT (no Albanian versian)

Macedonia 21:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It is official - see [8]. Telex 22:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said, it isn't :-) [9] Macedonia 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] It obviously isn't :-) Macedonia 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It is, since 2002:

The constitutional amendments mandated by the FWA provide that Albanian is to be recognized as a second, official language in areas in which it is spoken by more than 20 percent of the population. The FWA stipulated that the Albanian language would be used officially in Parliament for the first time in October 2002 by M.P.s newly elected in 2002, with interpretation in the Macedonian language provided for ethnic Macedonians and others. (from [17])

Regards, Telex 22:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but Albanian, Turkish, Aromanian are only official languges in some municipalties. The constitution says so. Bomac 12:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

But why discriminate against the minorities. 5% in Finland speak Swedish, look at Portal:Finland. Telex 12:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The minorities are not discriminated. They have equal rights as the Macedonians. They can speak whatever language they want. Bomac 12:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute, the quote I gave above said that Albanian would be used officially in parliament according to the constitutional amendements. I don't know about Turkish and Romany and other languages which comprise 5% of the population, but Albanian is spoken offcially in parliament. What is your quote which limits Albanian to local gov. Telex 12:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's because the Macedonian Albanians are the the most numerous politicians (from the minorities) in the parliament. That does not mean that Albanian is equally widespreaded as Macedonian. Bomac 12:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, the Albanian name should be in the intro (and once the main article is unprotected, it should be introduced there). Anyway, the BBC says that there are two main languages in ROM, Macedonian and Albanian and if you use the BBC as a source to imply that the Macedonian language existed in medival times on Macedonian language, it would be double standards not to. Not to mention that if you remove the recognised Albanian name from here, I'll be removing the Macedonian names from all the Albanian and Greek articles on places. Telex 12:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you know what are double standards? 'Caus here, in the English Wikipedia you represent yourself as anti-nationalist, cosmopolitan and bla, bla, and you change the name of Republic of Macedonia to FYROM in the Albanian Wikipedia. That makes me not to trust you in your "cosmopolitan" moves you make here. Bomac 12:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's because I'm a cosmopolitan, not a nationalist that I advocate using all official lanuages. BTW, are you that pro-Macedonian anon over at sqwiki? Telex 12:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, cosmopolitan. Bomac 12:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And - please - don't call me a nationalist. I like the multiethnic country I live in, I have many Albanian and Turkish friends I study with. Bomac 12:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The question is this, I think: are Macedonian and Albanian both official languages of the RoM, in the same measure, like Flemish and French in Belgium, or Swedish and Finnish in Finland? The question in this article (or in the article RoM) should not be the number of people speaking the two languages, but their status.--Aldux 12:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not the only criterion. The official language of Inner Mongolia is Chinese - that doesn't stop Wikipedia mentioning the Mongolian name. Telex 12:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that these languages (Albanian, Turkish, Aromanian etc.) are de facto official languages in municipalties. Bomac 12:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Albanian is de jure official. It was one of the terms of agreement with the guerrillas. Telex 12:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's right. De jure in municipalties. Bomac 12:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I believe Albanian is official only at a local level; it's the official language in Albanian majority municipalities, while Macedonian is the official language in all municipalities, and I think it's also the sole language of the highest levels of administration. In Italy we have a province (South Tyrol) where German is majoritarian, and as such is used in schools and local administration; but that doesn't mean that Italy has two official languages.--Aldux 13:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And in the national parliament/assembly [18]. Telex 13:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, why are people always calling me a nationalist, when I am a cosmopolitan [19]). User:HolyRomanEmperor a fellow self-described cosmopolitan (on his userpage) gets the same thing [20]. Telex 13:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but like it or not, I don't think that the silly ethiquette "FYROM" is a cosmopolitan word for the Republic of Macedonia. Bomac 13:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the famous cosmopolitan Kofi Annan uses it. Telex 13:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You know, as a cosmopolitan, it is really strange that you ,,enborder" yourself with Kofi Annan. You sound to me like this: ,,Oh he says so, I must obey that...". That's simply NOT a cosmopolitan way of thinking.

Frankly, Kofi can't be a cosmopolitan, because he works in a institution that is HEAVILLY under influence of politics. Bomac 13:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Not quite - he has to take the worldly viewpoint; that's the definition of a cosmopolitan. Telex 13:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

He has to take the strong Greek diplomacy viewpoint, but OK. I strongly believe that he is ,,sick and tired" of that silly ,,FYROM" case, but whatever. Anyway, in this case you don't show much cosmopolitanity. You are enbordering yourself, which makes you only ,,a local man". Bomac 14:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, what's your problem with the Albanian Wikipedia. The Greek and Danish Wikipedias use it and no one uprises. Telex 13:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the Albanian Wikipedia. Frankly, I think that move of yours there is, actually, made by the influence you've met here (the Greek users, ofcourse).

And, are you serious about the Greek Wikipedia ? OK, I can get it about the Danish, but, are you sure about the Greek Wikipedia ? I made a comment upwards, too. Read it. Bomac 13:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with the Greek Wikipedia. It's more neutral than the Macedonian Wikipedia, which draws a POV parralel between Modern (Slavic) and Ancient Macedonians. Telex 13:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Gimme a break! П.Г.Δ.М. is certainly a NPOV (in fact, Greeks don't want to listen the other people's opinion, thus their POV is NPOV! And Slavomakedonika, sure, sure...

In Macedonian Wikipedia, the name of the country is Република Македонија, and mk. Wiki does not make a parralel with the Slavs and the Ancients. In fact, noone in R. Macedonia says that Ancients (Macedonians) were Slavs (Macedonians), it says that today's Macedonians have a certain heredity left over from the Ancients, just like every other people that live in the region of Macedonia, including Greeks etc. Even if the Slavs did not came in the 7-th century (or whatever century it is) as the Greeks claim, the people that actually are the ,,true" descendants whatsoever mixed with other different people, including Macedonian Slavs. Hey, the genes never die! . BTW, have you heard of this? You'll excuse me now, I have to go to study along with my Albanian friends at Cyrill and Methodius university. Bomac 14:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right. What about the NPOV article mk:Историја на македонскиот народ and template mk:Шаблон:Историја на македонскиот народ. You sure are denying that you have anything to do with the ancients ;-) nothing short of direct linage. That article sure gave me a good laugh . What was that that you were saying about NPOV? Telex 14:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Didn't say that I'm denying. I bet you waited like a trigger what will I say and then you've prepared these links... Read first, then answer. You don't have to see things only from one side. Those articles don't state that Macedonians have the exclusive right of Ancient's heredity. Read this. The ideologies of ethnic purities on the Balkans don't hold much ground. Now I really have to go. Regards, Bomac 14:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a strawman, no Greek claims unbroken descent from ancient Macedon (find a source for that). What they do resist is the monopolisation of the name (and everything associated). Telex 14:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Bomac, do you have something against Albanians? R. Macedonia is a multicultural state (unlike Greece and France), you should embrace that. Telex 17:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary - read my past comments. I said I love my multiethnic (and multicultural) country I live in. And, I have a lot of Albanian friends. I think I made my point. Bomac 17:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You know, Macedonians are nice people, it's a shame there are only 5,000 of them in Albania. I wish I knew how many there were in Greece (I'm one of the people who supports adding that question to the census - see also my comments here) Telex 17:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW are there any Greeks in R. Macedonia? Before 1945, the place was full of them. I have heard somewhere that there are a lot of people there claiming Greek descent, but that's about it. Telex 17:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you probably know, the point of dispute between Macedonians and Greeks is that Greeks count as ,,Slavophones" only those which voted for Rainbow (the political party, ofcourse ), and they are around 6,000 (I think so). On the other hand, Macedonians claim that this is not a criterium for counting the minorities, thus they say that there are around 200,000 (some claim even more) restrictioned Macedonians.

As for me, I really don't know the correct number, but I strongly believe that the number is high, because there are many Macedonians who have escaped from the Greek Civil War and now live all over R. Macedonia, not to mention in Skopje. They claim that the number of Macedonians in Greek Macedonia is high.

No, I haven't heard of any native Greeks in R. Macedonia. But, according the Greek users (and you - hey, why does smt. tells me you are Greek - nevermind :-), there are Greeks in R. Macedonia. If there are, they sure are silent. Bomac 17:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Jas sum kosmopolit. Zatoa, e nevozmozhen da sum Grk ili neshto drug. Telex 18:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, you want to feel like that, but there is still some ,,Balkanism" left in you... Bomac 18:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Languages

Enough with the reverting. Is there any "sane" reason (note the "sane") why not to include the minority languages spoken in the RoM ? Stop frenching around. - FrancisTyers 19:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Because we don't know them all. Who knows what Republic of Macedonia is called in the Megleno-Romanian language. Telex 19:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if we don't know we can't include it, but how about the ones we know about? - FrancisTyers 20:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont think that you guys should push the minority language idea too far. There are only are few countries in the world which are ethnically homogeneous, and in all others there are minorities speaking their language. So the question is really how significant a minority should be in order to be included. For the republic is about 25%, for Arabic of France - maybe 5%. Spanish in the US - maybe 15%, Turkish in Bulgaria - 7-8% Russian in the Ukraine - also about 25%. FunkyFly 19:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I would be inclined to only include IMLs (indigenous minority languages) not NIMLs, e.g. in Wales, English and Welsh. Of course in the Balkans it is a little harder deciding exactly what constitutes "indigenous" ;) - FrancisTyers 20:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Name

I've blocked User:Macedonia aka. User:64.187.60.66 for violating the 3RR. However, what he says has a point, the country is referred to as simply "Macedonia". I will re-add this. - FrancisTyers 23:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The country is also referred to as FYROM (short form of 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'), but i do not see this name in the article...Hence, their is no reason to isolate the word 'Macedonia' from the full constitutional name 'Republic of Macedonia'. Otherwise we should say: sometimes referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or simply FYROM. --Hectorian 23:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Although I would have no problem putting FYROM in parentheses after former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and then including Macedonia aswell. Probably not necessary though. - FrancisTyers 23:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Fran, it has a point as much as the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" has a point in the main article, since "the country is referred to as" that name too (in many millions of instances). However, you chose to vote only for the option that doesn't include it. Editors here may sense double standards, so please clarify your position...(your "Probably not necessary though." should have covered me —sorry, but... darn edit conflict!) NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 23:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

A peroration

Am I really the only one who feels all this cumulating of names absurd? And now, as it wasn't enough, the same is happening with the Greek portal... Com'on, why don't we simply remove all foreign names from the RoM portal, Macedonian Included, and restore the Greek portal to how it was before?--Aldux 21:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it's my fault. As a cosmopolitan, I like to multiculturalize things. Telex 21:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Some advise - start working on a 200 by 200 chart of names of countries in different languages. :) FunkyFly 21:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think we need that. This is the English Wikipedia. Let's just give the English, and let the interested reader go to the article in whatever language for that form. Jonathunder 21:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

That is fine, but, according to me, the language which has the name of the country should be included as a information. Bomac 21:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that important languages of a country should be included. This importance should not be judged in terms of officiality, nor in name of country. The correct criterion is frequency (which is actual -despite acknowledgement from governments, and beyond borders). Portal:Switzerland includes all four languages, and yet at least one of them mathematically is less than 25%. I think that it is very important that languages of such proportions as one out of four living souls are included, if languages of the other three have to be included as well. So stop comparing this portal to Portal:Greece and put both languages in this portal, or remove all languages from all portals.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Frequency is not important, what matters here is "officiality". Does Albanian have the same status as Macedonian? If not then it should not be included. If it is included, despite not being "official", do any other languages have the same status as Albanian (I'm thinking perhaps Turkish, Serbian, and Romany) ? - FrancisTyers 23:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

We know that both languages are officially spoken in the national parliament. Telex 23:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

But does this an "official language" make? It isn't mentioned in the constitution. Which would suggest to me no. The four languages of Switzerland are mentioned in the Swiss constitution. As you can see, frequency is irrelevant in this The most recent census produced the following picture of how the languages are distributed: (Swiss)German 63.9%, French 19.5%, Italian 6.6%, Romansh 0.5%, others 9.5%

The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia. In the units of local self-government where the majority of the inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in a manner determined by law. In the units of local self-government where there is a considerable number of inhabitants belonging to a nationality, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, under conditions and in a manner determined by law.

- FrancisTyers 23:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Those constitutions again for comparison:

• Macedonia: Article 7: The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.
• Switzerland: Article 4 National Languages: The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh.

I'm all for including other languages, but if one "pseudo-official" language is included, they all should be, in the interests of NPOV, and the Swiss example is a bad comparison because all languages are co-official. Frequency is not important. - FrancisTyers 23:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

How about Finland? Telex 23:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

On Finland check this mini link [21]. I talked with a Finnish friend, who was with Swedish origin, and he said that he only started to learn Finnish at the end of his primary school. So Swedish is official, though they are only 6% of the population. The positive thing is, that is legal even though it is openly said that Swedes migrated to Finland in the past. And Albanians are native in Macedonia :). Regards, Ilir pz 23:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I think Albanian, and the other languages should become co-offical with Macedonian. Finland is very reasonable in this way, as are a lot of the other countries of the Europe, viz. Spain, UK, Switzerland etc. I think Turkey, Greece, and France are the worse offenders in this respect. France is particularly surprising considering it is a wealthy developed country. - FrancisTyers 10:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Finland: Section 17 Right to one's language and culture: (1) The national languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish.

See Portal:Finland. - FrancisTyers 23:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah-hmm. Excuse me, but since when is officiality more important than actuality in Wikipedia? Oh, and I bolded above the parts that make the difference under the constitution...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 09:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't quite understand what you are getting at. And I removed the bold, that is not the most relevant part. The most relevant part is In the units of local self-government. So, either we include all the languages used in local self-government, or none. If we do include the languages used in local self-government it should probably be noted that they are not co-official with Macedonian on a national level. - FrancisTyers 10:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's bring more people in this discussion. Maybe then you will be able to understand why 25% exclusively is A LOT and 1-2% partly ia A FEW. Maybe then you will also understand that co-official or official are better than totally unofficial... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 21:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Flag

I know that several years back Albanians were not allowed to use their Albanian flag, and for that there was bloodshed in Tetova once (or more times). I am curious to know how did the Ohër/Ohrid Agreement regulate that issue? I haven't been able to find info on that. Thank you, Ilir pz 23:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

None knows anything about this? Ilir pz 10:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

No idea. (Some?) text of the Ohrid agreement as provided by Francis can be found here. I hope it helps in looking for this subject.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 11:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

See Article 8 of the Ohrid Agreement (available online):

Members of communities have a right freely to express, foster and develop their identity and community attributes, and to use their community symbols.

It also discusses, freedom of expression etc. Telex 11:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Ilir pz 22:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Language problem sorted

The Agreement met the Albanian demands with regard to establishing the official status of the Albanian language. Every other language other than Macedonian – which remains the main official language, to be used for example in foreign relations – that is spoken by more than 20 per cent of the population will henceforth be an official language on the central level as well as in communities where more than 20 per cent of the population speak that other official language. In fact, only Albanian fulfils this condition. Languages other than Macedonian which are spoken by at least 20 per cent of the inhabitants of a municipality will, however, also serve as an official language in local self government. Furthermore, the government will henceforth have to provide university education for language communities which speak another official language than Macedonian. This way the protracted ‘Albanian university’ issue, which has been a cornerstone of Albanian political activism in Macedonia since the early 1990s, should finally be put to rest.

About the Ohrid Agreement, see [22]

Now, couldn't one of you guys have found and cited that? Lets remove them all with the exception of Macedonian and Albanian. I'm not going to do it, you do the leg work. - FrancisTyers 21:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok Fran. I will. Will you do what you have to do in Portal:Greece/Intro for me please?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Gladly. - FrancisTyers 23:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)