File talk:Somalia map states regions districts.png

First Chat

Can this map be correct. They say that islamists have now conquered Kismayo but according to this map they already controlled it 8.7.2008. I wonder if there are more mistakes in the map. --80.223.146.227 (talk) 05:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

They didn't, the Kismayo warlords signed an agreement with al-Shabab aligning themselves with the Islamist movement, which would leave them in charge of day to day affairs in exchange for a percentage of the cash from Kismayo. The fighting broke out due to the collapse of the agreement which led to Shabab conquering the city directly. --Ingoman (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that is map ignores the advances made by the Ahlu Sunnah Waljamaa militia in the western/central part of the country. By 9 January they were in control of Gelinsoor, Guriel and Dhusamareb (Galgaduud), most of Gedo (excl. Bardhere) as well as several cities in Bay. Also Ethiopians controlled Afgoye and a larger perimeter around Baidoa. Ingoman, are the above differences by design or by omission? The map shows Al-Shabaab in a better shape than it really is. Kaptar (talk) 09:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you're talking about, Ahlu Sunnah wal-Jamma is not actually responsible for the pro-government militia using its name in and around Dusamareeb, and I've already included their victory in the Abudwaq corridor controlled by Ethiopia. Baidoa is nowhere near as secure as you claim, Islamists took all the surrounding villages late last year. The UIC has been holding press conferences in Mogadishu and control all but a few neighborhoods. The real fighting is in Gedo and Dusamareeb, where clan warlords have the most support. Al-Shabab is just the youth wing of the UIC, it is not a separate organization, though they do have their own command structure, they report to Aweys and Indha'adde. --Ingoman (talk) 11:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course the Sufi group is not responsible, but since the militias use the same name, I'll call them that way. Barre Hiiraale (anyways now also part of the "Ahlu Sunnah" alliance) and Ethiopians have captured most of Gedo and some of Bay, for reference see:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200901050803.html

http://allafrica.com/stories/200901060204.html

Ethiopians at Afgoi:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200901050958.html

My mistake regarding Guri El, I see that you have listed it under government control. How about Dhusamareb, I though the same guys recaptured that city, too. Kaptar (talk) 01:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to mention Inda'adde is at odds with Al-Shabaab since the capture of Merka by them, and one of his main lieutenants is thought to be in charge of the Ahlu Sunnah group in Galgaduud. The forces of Aweys have clashed with Al-Shabaab in Baladweyne. So I don't see how Al-Shabaab would be reporting to them.Kaptar (talk) 01:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No, the UIC, ARS and al-Shabab have been in control of Dusamareeb for a few months now. I don't know where you're getting your information from in regards to Indha'adde, but he is the overall commander of all Islamist military forces in Somalia. The Beledweyne fighting was between the Ujejeen and Xawaadle in their eternal rivalry over the town, and as far as I know I don't believe al-Shabab was even involved. Mind you, the media tend to call any militia that takes up arms against the goverment, wave a black flag with the Shahada on it and yell "Alahu Akbaht" is al-Shabab, whether they are or not, so take from that what you will. The supposed simmering rivalry between al-Shabab and the rest of the UIC has been essentially fabricated and then blown out of proportion, and I am afraid the counterterrorism folks are going to be very dissapointed. They oppose the peace deal between Sharif Sheikh Ahmad and the TFG, but so does Aweys, Indha'adde and most of the ARS, only a minority of ARS leadership followed Sharif Sheikh Ahmad to Djibouti to negotiate.

By the way, regarding the Ethiopian capture of Qansax Dheere, they followed this up a few days later and tried to take Diinsoor as well, and were ambushed and defeated by Islamist forces and took pretty heavy losses, and al-Shabab retook Qansax Dheere by the end of the week. Your news is pretty old, Ethiopia withdrew from all of Banaadir and Lower and Middle Shabeele this week. At the moment they're trying to reconquer Gedo. --Ingoman (talk) 04:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

On the 2009 timeline article it sais this: "The town of Guriel was occupied by Sufi transitional government militiamen early this morning after Al Shabeeb fighters left the town thinking Ethiopian troops were coming. At day break, Al Shabeeb fighters returned to the town and retook the community from government forces leaving 41 fighters dead in total, 25 suspected TFG fighters and 16 Al Shabeeb fighters. No civilians were hurt or killed in the battle."[21] Which basically means that al-Shabaab re-took the twon from the Sufi militants, Ahlu Sunnah wal-Jamma, so it should be included again in the Insurgent controlled territory. Kermanshahi (talk) 17:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

So then, is Puntland (plus Maakhir and Northland) no longer involved with the TFG?

Shouldn't there by a new map, as there is a new conflict? Kermanshahi (talk) 13:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I think an animated map would be nice. --Artman40 (talk) 10:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Is Hizbi Islam now neutral or apart of the governing coalition? Map should be updated... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.242.16 (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This map needs to be updated. The TFG is no longer in control of most of these areas.71.192.134.75 (talk) 01:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I second the opinion of the person above me. The landscape has definitely changed since the map was made.

The map needs to be updated. Ethiopia is back in the fray.

In relation to this, the ICU administration in Hiran has seemingly collapsed out of disagreement over the use of Ethiopian interventionalism; stating they've joined anti-Government forces. Second link specifically mentions Hisbul Islam. Whether this is just some of the officials or all, I don't know. They claim the whole administration has been disolved though. ( http://www.shabelle.net/News/ViewNews.asp?NewsID=7235 and then http://www.shabelle.net/News/ViewNews.asp?NewsID=7246 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.25.84 (talk) 23:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The map needs to be updated.

It's almost november and things have changed drastically since July. We need an update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.242.54 (talk) 05:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Awdal?

Although I am not certain of the status of the region, this article would suggest that Awdal has a de facto independant state known as Awdalland. Should this be the case, it would be good if it could be added to the map. -- AM666999 talk   21:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Inaccurate map

The map is woefully inaccurate. For one thing, the entire country is officially known as the "Republic of Somalia", not just where the Transitional Federal Government/TFG currently controls (the blue area according to this map). The official name in Somalia for the Somaliland region is "Somaliland", not the "Republic of Somaliland"; the latter is just what the secessionist administration calls it. This needs to be changed back to its neutral original [1] "Somaliland separatists" or simply "Somaliland". Further, the TFG controls over half of Mogadishu [2], a lot more than the limited area indicated herein; so this too needs to be adjusted. Puntland is also not only unaligned; it is autonomous and has its own administration, unlike the indicated "Islamic Caliphate of Somalia", which does not exist [3]. Puntland therefore needs its own color and legend box to reflect its autonomous status, and the "Islamic Caliphate of Somalia" legend box needs to be changed to "Al-Shabaab" or "Islamist resistance" or some variation thereof as before. Given the above, the map needs to be updated as soon as possible with accurate information before being re-added to any articles. Middayexpress (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

This is TFG POV. You cannot only represent the side of the TFG. I disagree with all the changes proposed above. Outback the koala (talk) 05:00, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Puntland should indeed have its own color and legend box, instead of the ambiguous neutral status. Especially since the latest issues it has with the TFG [4]. I also agree with that 'Republic of Somaliland' should be replaced by simply 'Somaliland' or 'Somaliland separatists'. I am not sure whether the TFG actually controls much of Mogadishu, it's a very volatile region. I must say this map is useful to give individuals with little knowledge of the Somali political issues a quick overview. Wadaad (talk) 10:44, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The term "Somaliland" is currently used on the map to indicate the geographical region, whereas the "Republic of Somaliland" is used in the key to show the areas that the administration (which refers to itself as the Republic of Somaliland) controls. Similarly, the "Republic of Somaliia" should only be used to describe the areas the TFG controls, whereas the neutral "Somalia" should be used to describe the entire region. The fact that the map states that Puntland is "unaligned or neutral" does not indicate that it does not have its own administration, and in fact the map is quite clear that it is an independant region. However, due to the relative stability of the region compared with other administrative bodies which share (or have previously shared) the designation as "unaligned or neutral" on the map, it may be useful, though not necessary, to have a colour for Puntland. If I am not mistaking the "Islamic Emirate of Somalia" is a term used by Islamists such as Al-Shabab, and Al-Shabab would be the only current claiment to that name. As such, the map does not need to drastically change, possibly just a colour added for Puntland, and, if Middayexpress is right, the borders within Mogadishu changed.--

AM666999 talk   18:40, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

However, the term "SSC", which I am assuming is reffering to the Northern Somali Unionist Movement, is ambiguous, and it would be good if it could be changed to a more precise name.--

AM666999 talk   19:13, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

A legend is a guide to a map's symbology. Ergo, the legend indicates what the colored areas in the map [5] actually represent. Whether intentionally or not, this means that the reader is led to believe that the colored area in the map itself reserved for the Somaliland region actually pertains to the "Republic of Somaliland" (what the secessionist government calls and considers the territory, not its actual official name), especially given the fact that the Puntland region -- whose autonomous status both within Somalia and the international community is identical to Somaliland's -- is not even accorded its own legend box or color, nevermind its own self-declared name (the "Puntland State of Somalia"). Likewise, the area controlled by the Transitional Federal Government should obviously be labeled "Transitional Federal Government", not "Republic of Somalia". The "Republic of Somalia" (a term coined during independence in 1960) is the official name for the entire country, not just the current federal government (an interim body created in 2004) or the areas it directly controls. There is also no such administration as the "Islamic Caliphate of Somalia"; the latter is just what the Islamists at least claim they want to create (a caliphate). This is why the article of the same name was deleted. I agree with Wadaad that the map in principle is useful. The bottom line, however, remains that it is quite inaccurate and needs to be updated. Middayexpress (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The coloured area of the map does pertain to the Republic of Somaliland (which is the official name from its own government's POV as opposed to the TFG's POV) and not the entire geographical region that could be considered Somaliland (which either could include the entire of Sanaag, Sool and Cayn or miss them out completely), and yes I agree about Puntland's colouring (EDIT: and name) due to its near-identical status with Somaliland (although it calls itself an autonomous state, not a sovereign state). As for the Republic of Somalia, there are a couple of points that should be taken into consideration: firstly, the Transitional Federal Government is the body that is recognised internationally to be the government of the Republic of Somalia; and secondly, to name the entire map Republic of Somalia would be to ignore the fact that there are other titles for Somalia (or for regions of Somalia which wish to/have succeeded from the Republic) claimed by the various governments and as such would be taking a TFG POV. The term "Islamic Emirate of Somalia", if used in a semi-official capacity/if officially claimed by Harakat al-Shabaab al-Mujahideen, could be considered synonymous with al-Shabaab, or at least the territories controlled by al-Shabaab, however its use is admittedly ambiguous. One (possible) minor mistake I noticed myself is that al-Shabaab is shown to have its capital at Kismaayo, when, on the page for al-Shabaab, it is shown to have its capital at Mogadishu.--

AM666999 talk   22:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The official name for the Somaliland region internationally (not just within Somalia) is "Somaliland". The "Republic of Somaliland" is what the secessionist government itself calls the region because that is what it considers itself [6]. Hence, Wadaad is quite right: "Republic of Somaliland" won't due; it's either "Somaliland" or "Somaliland separatists". Puntland's autonomous status is also not near identical with Somaliland; it is exactly identical with Somaliland. The only difference is that Somaliland's secessionist government has declared the territory independent -- a declaration that the world does not recognize [7] (i.e. only the separatists themselves do). The official name for Somalia is the "Republic of Somalia" or its variant the "Somali Republic" or simply "Somalia" [8]; there are no other names for the country (except for a brief period during Barre's socialist regime, when he renamed the country the "Somali Democratic Republic"). The Transitional Federal Government likewise is still known as the "Transitional Federal Government", not the "Republic of Somalia". The territory in the map that the TFG holds therefore logically ought to be labeled "Transitional Federal Government", not "Republic of Somalia" because the latter refers to the entire country, irrespective of whatever local polity controls which region. Further, Al-Shabaab (whose leaders for the most part operate out of Kismayo, just as the Tamil rebels are based in various towns in Sri Lanka) commands neither a "caliphate" nor an "emirate", nor is there any reliable source that indicates it does; again, that is just what its leaders claim to want to create (c.f. [9]). Bottom line, either the map is updated with accurate information or it'll be replaced with something that is actually accurate and sourced. Middayexpress (talk) 00:08, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The term "Republic of Somaliland" is only indicative of what that government controls, which is its purpose in this map, whereas "Somaliland" would refer to the entire of the geographical region which could be considered Somililand, as I have already stated. As such it is possible to live in an area considered to be part of Somaliland, without living in the Republic (eg. Sanaag, Sool & Cayn). "Somaliland seperatists", while accurate, is also less accurate than "Republic of Somaliland" (as there can be no doubt as to which body is being reffered to), and is also not neutral (as it gives recognition to the Republic of Somalia, whilst not giving recognition to the Republic of Somaliland). The Republic of Somaliland is de facto independant, whether any foreign body recognises it or not, as is Puntland (even though it has not claimed it), and so should be recognised as such by wikipedia, which is meant to be neutral. Puntland should have a colour box in the legend/key due to its equal stability and control as Somaliland, even though it does not claim the same status as Somaliland, however it should also be listed as the "Free State of Puntland", for the same reasons as Somaliland being listed as the "Republic of Somaliland" (Sanaag, Sool & Cayn can be considered to be part of the geographical region of Puntland as well as Somaliland, though control of the regions is divided). "Republic of Somalia" is only the official name of the country according to the TFG and foreign nations or international bodies, and not the de facto bodies in control of the country. "Somalia" is the only neutral name that can be used for the county, and while the entire country may be de jure part of the Republic of Somalia, the entire of SSC is de jure part of the Republic of Somaliland according to its own laws, and part of the Free State of Puntland according to its own laws. The Transitional Federal Government is the only government which claims to be the government of the Republic of Somalia, and the Republic of Somalia's de facto extent is the extent of the control of the TFG, whether the "Republic" officially (de jure) refers to the entire country or not. As for the name "Islamic Emirate of Somalia", I shall point out that several non-democratic countries have official titles which include the word "Democratic". As such it would be perfectly possible for a state or body to have the title "Emirate" or "Caliphate", however, whether al-Shabaab currently refers to the area it controls/Somalia as such should be what defines the use of it on the map. If the leaders of al-Shabaab operate mostly out of Kismaayo then the page of al-Shabaab should be changed to reflect this. The fact is, this map's so called "inaccurate information" (as stated by Midday) is actually debatably accurate. The map certainly does not need to be replaced, unless there is a major inaccuracy in the controlled territory of each body, not the names of each territory. It is unlikely that a map will be found which is more accurate and/or sourced.--

AM666999 talk   17:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The term "Republic of Somaliland" is not, as you suggest, merely indicative of what territory the Somaliland administration controls. It is what the Somaliland government calls all of its claimed territory, irrespective of whether or not it actually controls the territory ("the area in the North West, which calls itself the Republic of Somaliland" [10]). This includes the unionist Sool, Sanaag and Cayn (SSC) regions it has little control over, as well as the equally unionist Awdalland in the northwesternmost part of the region. Labeling the territory on the map as the "Republic of Somaliland" is not "NPOV", but very obviously siding with the tiny-minority, secessionist POV for the simple fact that the world at large does not recognize any "republic" called Somaliland [11]; the secessionist government's declaration of independence itself is not recognized [12]. This is precisely why complaining about "giv[ing] recognition to the Republic of Somalia, whilst not giving recognition to the Republic of Somaliland" is patently absurd. Somalia (officially known as the "Republic of Somalia") is an actual country with international recognition as such, whereas Somaliland is only recognized as an autonomous region within Somalia. Numerous legal instruments protect this territorial integrity too, most notably the UN charter. You also claim that Somalia's "de facto" extent is only restricted to the areas that the TFG directly controls. This is an opinion and a false one at that since all of the country's legal territory is unionist. That is, all of Somalia's regions recognize themselves (and are internationally recognized) as a part of the Republic of Somalia; except, of course, for the secessionist Somaliland region (which is likewise internationally recognized as an autonomous region in the Republic of Somalia regardless), large parts of whose claimed territory, lest we forget, are themselves unionist. As for Puntland, it is officially known as the "Puntland State of Somalia", not the "Free State of Puntland" (?). Its legal status is also identical to Somaliland's, so its treatment on the map should be as well. Lastly, the Al-Shabaab administration is not considered a "state" by any reliable source, and Wikipedia is not about indulging the whims of rebel groups/entities i.e. calling what they wish to establish a "caliphate" as though it has already been established ("The militia, which seeks to create an Islamic emirate" [13]). This is why the article on the non-existent "caliphate" was deleted in the first place. Per WP:OI, "Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy." This is the last I am writing on this matter. Middayexpress (talk) 19:25, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether much of the country considers itself unionist or not, the Republic of Somalia, which is controlled by the Transitional Federal Government, does not have control over areas such as Puntland, Sanaag, Sool, Cayn and Awdal (de facto literally means "of fact", so it would be incorrect to state that the Republic of Somalia's de facto extent goes further than the TFG controlled areas). The map is meant to show the de facto situation of the country as opposed to the de jure (according to Republic of Somalia law). A distinction must be made between an actual controlled territory (the de facto), and the territory claimed by a state/political body etc. The term "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" does not, as a general rule, include the claimed British Antarctic Territory, the term "Kingdom of Spain" does not usually include the claimed Gibraltar. The Republic of Somalia (as administered by the Transitional Federal Government) has de facto control of the areas in blue, the Republic of Somaliland has de facto control of the area in orange (possibly excluding Awdalland, as I have already stated). Wikipedia should not side with the "world at large" as much as it shouldn't side against it, as it is meant to remain neutral. Labelling the orange area "Republic of Somaliland" is neither NPOV nor "siding with the tiny-minority, secessionist POV for the simple fact that the world at large does not recognize any "republic" called Somaliland", it is simply showing the areas the government of the Republic of Somaliland currently controls, using the proper name for that entity. Other than the Republic of Somaliland, as well as Puntland etc. the TFG has little control over the al-Shabaab regions (which are very definitely not unionist). I have already agreed several times that the Puntland State of Somalia (which I subconsciously and mistakenly referred to as the "Free State of Somalia") deserves its own colour on the map. Al-Shabaab may not be considered a state, however that does not stop it being able to have de facto territory, and as I already stated the term "Islamic Emirate/Caliphate of Somalia" should be used if it is already in "official" use by al-Shabaab for its controlled territory, to illustrate that that is what it calls itself, and very definitely not to "indulg[e] the whims of rebel groups/entities ".

As far as I can see, the best compromise would be to place simple bolded type above the key stating "Areas controlled by:", to change "Islamic Emirate of Somalia" to al-Shabaab due to the possibility that the territory is not currently referred to as that, and to make exact the statuses of Awdalland and Mogadishu.--

AM666999 talk   21:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, well; can't say I didn't try. As long overdue, this completely inaccurate, OR map has been nominated for deletion [14]. Middayexpress (talk) 22:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe this nomination was made in bad faith and have raised lengthy concerns at Talk:Somalia. Anyone is free to weigh in. Swarm ^X 08:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

You'll have to do a lot more than engage in ad hominem to even begin to demonstrate that, among other things, there is such a thing as the "Islamic Emirate of Somalia", as this completely OR map claims. Middayexpress (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I participated in the Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Islamic_Emirate_of_Somalia. User:Middayexpress asked me on my talk page to comment on the File :Somalia map states regions districts.png. I'm not familiar with the complicated situation in the region, however, as for the Islamic Emirate of Somalia, nothing changed since the AfD. From what I found, the Islamic Emirate of Somalia still doesn't exist and the information in the map is incorrect. It should be changed to Areas controlled by Al-Shabaab. This part of the map (the explanatory notes in the right bottom) is misleading for a reader. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 09:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The article was deleted because the information wasn't verified by reliable sources, not because it doesn't exist. If there's a problem with wording, it should be fixed. However, considering that no real attempts to fix the image have been made (no one even contacted the image's creator and maintainer), I think the basis for deletion is nonexistent. Also, how can you claim this map is OR when you haven't even asked the creator for the sources he uses? If he said "I do the research myself" or "I don't use any sources", you could support the OR claim. But for all you know, he could equally be using recent books and articles as sources for the map. Funny how you accuse me of ad hominem while subsequently accusing the images creator of original research, behind his back. Real helpful. Swarm ^X 15:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

On 23 October 2010 the Puntland news agency Garowe Online published the following observation by Michael Weinstein: "Islamic transnationalism is represented in Somalia by al-Shabab, which announced in mid-September the formation of the "Islamic Emirate of Somalia" and claimed that the resistance fighters (mujahideen) in Somalia were "close to uniting" and "will all come under the Emirate's authority." [15]. Concurrently the Afd on the Islamic Emirate of Somalia was proceeding to deletion, leaving the classic Wikipedia situation of an article about a war "War in Somalia (2009–)" with an infobox showing one of the belligerents deleted. You never know whether to laugh or cry at/with Wikipedia. Opbeith (talk) 10:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

This was basically my feeling as well. I could have fought the deletion (I created the article) but there's no point. I mean look at the discussion here! What would be the point? Ingoman (talk) 20:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll see if we can get the article undeleted. Swarm ^X 16:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no awdalland and the map is right so it dont have to be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imbaratore (talk • contribs) 23:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Could somebody please give sources as to whether "Awdalland" has/doesn't have control of the Awdal region (although the Awdalland article gives sources, they seem to be very non-NPOV).--

AM666999 talk   17:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know there is a seperatist movement, but they don't actually have controll on the ground. Their declaration of independence was more or less symbolical.Kermanshahi (talk) 22:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

1. ASWJ/TFG/Barre Hiiraale do not control Garbahare or Buur Dhuubo. There were reports of the Shabaab troops withdrawing from these towns, but Barre Hiiraale never moved in. A "TFG" spokesman (according to Shabelle Media) promised to take control Garbahare but that never happened. 2. It is misleading to show SSC as allied with TFG. They may be using the "unionist" rhetoric but they have no real political/military relationship with TFG, it's very different from the TFG/ASWJ relationship. 3. The Mogadishu section which shows TFG/AMISOM in control of the whole of Hodan, Medina and Dharkenley is not correct. AMISOM actually only controls the Industrial Road up to the old MoD building. If your map were correct, Al-Shabaab would not be capable of attacking the Maka Al-Mukarama Road and the Dabka junction from both Hodane and Hawl Wadag trying to cut off the supplies to the AMISOM troops inside the MoD compound. If the corrections are made, it will be much easier to understand the present fighting.Hubbabubbabrr (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree there is no proof the SSC is actually allied with the TFG - there are no sources to support this either. A new colour should be created or the SSC controlled area should be shifted to grey. Outback the koala (talk) 05:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Correction/Update

Could someone update this map? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.173.214.143 (talk) 14:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I second this, there are many developments now compared to the old map. Now the TNG controls most of Mogadishu amongst other changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.31.55.145 (talk) 16:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Update the map

This is getting ridiculous a website the stature of Wikipedia must be able to update their maps within a reasonable time. There have been too many updates in this conflict that events are being missed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.133.71 (talk • contribs)

If someone could trace the current map into an SVG file, I'd be willing to take the lead in keeping it updated. As it is, I don't have time to take the current PNG file and manually convert it to vector format myself. Evzob (talk) 17:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I am able to edit it, however someone has to give me accurate al-Shabaab area of control after operation Linda Nchi, especially in region of Galguduud, Hiraan, Shabeelaha Dhexe and Azania. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I've been following the developments pretty closely on Somalia Report (http://somaliareport.com/) for the last few months. I could put together a summary with citations for you. I shouldn't promise to do it really soon, but there's a possibility. Why are you able to edit it? You're going to edit the PNG directly? Evzob (talk) 17:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I was more thinking about converting it to SVG but with little effort I should be able to edit PNG as well as I did during Libyan civil war. If you can come up with the report I shall start with the work. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sounds great. Converting it to SVG would be best of course, since it would make it easier for all of us to modify it in the future. If I don't get the list of citations together tonight, it might have to wait until next week or later, but I'll see what I can do. Thanks! Evzob (talk) 11:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Inkscape has feature which can convert PNG to SVG so I´ll give it a try. Also Im thinking about further modification in case of other territories like Puntland, Maakhir or Puntland but I dont know their status. Do they recognize TFG as supreme government over Somalia where they act as autonomus terrritories or not? And in case of map of control, how far are Kenyan troops from Kismayo? EllsworthSK (talk) 12:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that Inkscape tool would be worth a try. The exact status and political positions of some of the territories is a bit unclear to me as well, especially since I only started closely following the news from Somalia a few months ago. But hopefully a little more research would turn something up. As for the Kenyan troops, that's the area I've been following closely, so when I draw up that list of citations from Somalia Report we should have the information we need in that area. The short answer is that they haven't gotten much past Qooqani, though there are other fronts to the siege on Al-Shabaab - Ethiopian troops and the ASWJ militia have gained quite a bit of ground in Gedo and Hiraan regions. All of these operations are also supposedly being supported by TFG forces. If you're eager to figure some of it out before I get my sources together, you could browse around the archives of the Somalia Report site I linked to. Evzob (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. However I am unable to find that Qooqani town neither on google maps, nor on wikimapia. Could you post here its coordinates? As for Somalia Report I started following it as well and I think I know how should I edit Hiran region map of control. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. It looks like Google Maps calls the town Bilis Qooqaani. This is one of the major annoyances you're going to encounter - the inconsistent spellings of place names in Somalia. Even Somalia Report, which does good journalism, will sometimes spell a town differently in different articles. Anyway, sounds like you've got the situation under control, but I'll still try and draw up that list of citations from the last few months when I get back from vacation, because it might help with some of the details of which places have switched control and which haven't. Thanks so much for helping out! Evzob (talk) 13:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Summary and sources for map update

Here's the list I came up with summarizing and citing recent developments in territorial control in southern and central Somalia. EllsworthSK, I just saw your post on my user talk page, and I'll reply to your questions shortly on that page. In the meantime, maybe you can look over this list and see if there's anything there you don't know yet. It can also serve as a reference for anyone who wants to know the sources for the changes to the map.

Okay, first a summary of the groups involved in the recent fighting in each area:

Lower Juba (Jubbada Hoose): Kenya, Ras Kamboni militia[16], TFG(SNA), and possibly Azania(Jubaland) troops vs. Al-Shabaab; good article on the parties involved here: [17]

Gedo and Bakool: Kenya, ASWJ, and Ethiopia [18] vs. Al-Shabaab

Hiraan and Galguduud: ASWJ, Ethiopia [19] [20], TFG/SNA, and Shabelle Valley Administration (SVA)[21] vs. Al-Shabaab; occasionally also Ethiopia and ASWJ vs. ONLF [22]

And administrations:

Azania: Apparently one and the same with "Jubaland". Claims ownership of all of Middle and Lower Juba and Gedo regions. Actual administrative control probably limited to non-Shabaab areas of Lower Juba if it exists at all - these areas seem more likely to be currently under the control of the the Jount Task Force [23] of the Kenyan army and allied forces. Non-Shabaab areas of Gedo are probably better considered to be under ASWJ and Ethiopian control.

ASWJ: The ASWJ claims to administer several areas as if it were a state of its own. The non-Shabaab areas of Gedo, Bakool, Hiraan, and Galgadud are all possibly under ASWJ administration, though they are currently occupied by Ethiopia (closely allied with ASWJ), and Hiraan is also claimed by the Shabelle Valley Administration (SVA).

SVA: This group, which aims to liberate Hiraan region from Al-Shabaab, is an active player in that region, and there is some confusion over whether the TFG has troops there at all, or whether they are taking credit for the SVA militia's achievements. SVA seems to have a prickly relationship with ASWJ as well. [24][25][26]

Now here are all of the changes in control that I've logged from Somalia Report and other sources since the Kenyan invasion began:

October 16-22: Kenya invades via three separate corridors, and with support from TFG and Ras Kamboni Militia, take the town of Ras Kamboni on the coast; Dhobley, Taabta, and Qoqani near the middle of the Somalia-Kenya border; and Elwaq and Busar farther north in Gedo. map, [27], [28], [29]

October 21: Kenya takes towns of Oddo and Kolbio along the border [30]

October 28: Kenya and allies take town of Burgavo/Burgabo/Buur-Gaab [31], [32]

November 3: Somali and Kenyan forces take Shabaab bases in Gadon-dawe/Gadon-dhowe, Khadijo-Hajji/Kadija-Haji, El-Adde and El-Gudud/el-gaadud, located "between El-wak, Beled-hawo and Garbaharey" districts in Gedo [33], [34]

November 16: TFG forces with possible Kenyan support take Qurac-lafole and Sedex-jiirood villages near Busar [35]

November 17: Kenyan troops set up camp in Hayo, near Afmadow [36]

November 18: TFG and SVA forces take Baraagta-Elow village in Hiraan, on the way to Beled-Weyne [37]; in Lower Juba, TFG forces take Jilabdo/Jalabo village near Afmadow [38]

November 21: TFG forces seize Xanye village, 10km north of Qoqani [39]

December 23: Al-Shabaab flees from several areas between Busar and Bardere; Somalia Report says TFG and ASWJ control Gedo's "Luk, Dolo, Beled-hawa, Elwak, and Garbaharrey" districts, "while al-Shabaab controls the other two districts [in Gedo] (Bardhere and Burdhube). [40] Gedo Region Districts (map)

December 27: TFG troops in Gedo, coming from Busar, seize Fafahdhun village near Bardere [41]

December 30-31: TFG, SVA, and Ethiopian troops take Beledweyne in Hiraan [42], [43], [44]

January 2: ASWJ claims to have taken Bulucle village in Galgadud, 30km E of Dhusamareeb; in Hiraan region, TFG, ASWJ, Ethiopian, and SVA troops clash with Al-Shabaab in Darimbaale, 50km E of Beledweyne [45]

January 6: TFG and ASWJ reportedly capture El-Adde village in Gedo's Bardheere district. [46] (The village had already been reported captured on November 3)

January 14: TFG, Ethipian, and SVA forces out of Beledweyne take Tarejante, Bardere, Berhano, Mahaas, and Garsaani districts in Hiraan region [47]

January 19: TFG forces capture Kesow village in Bakool region [48]

January 20: African Union forces in Mogadishu make a mostly successful push to complete their control of the city of Mogadishu (aka Banadir region) [49], extending their control to northern Daynille district and the Suqa Hoolaha livestock market in Heliwa district; captured areas include "Mogadishu University, Barakaat cemetery, and the milk factory" [50]

We can also compare with Wikipedia's 2011 timeline of the War in Somalia and 2012 timeline of the War in Somalia, which I haven't had the chance to look over yet. As for any towns whose locations you aren't able to figure out, I can do some deeper research. I don't think we need mark every town on the map, but this will give us an idea of which areas to color as whose.

Evzob (talk) 19:30, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

There's been news recently from northern Somalia as well: Somaliland has seized Buuhoodle in the Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn administration [51][52], which this week reaffirmed its autonomy in a conference of civilian leaders [53](how much actual control it has on the ground, I'm not sure). Then, the portion of Mudug region in Puntland territory declared itself a new autonomous region separate from Puntland, called West Puntland State [54]. It's not entirely clear to me how much control this new administration has, but according to the cited article, "Puntland’s Police Commissioner, General Warsame Jama...admitted Puntland state has disintegrated into three mini states" (Puntland State; Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn; and West Puntland State). Evzob (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

According to this article, the conference in Sool region named the new SSC state "Khaatumo State". Haven't seen that anywhere else yet, though I did see that name used for the conference itself. Evzob (talk) 20:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Whoops, forgot the citation for that last one - in any case though, it comes from a source which Middayexpress has recommended we disregard. Evzob (talk) 21:04, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

How accurate is this BBC News map? --AM666999 (talk) 21:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice find! There are a few details I'm not able to independently verify (such as the Kenyan (beige) and ASWJ/Ethiopia (purple) areas of control connecting up along the border), but those may very well be accurate too. The level of detail and the details I can verify through other sources suggest that the creators took care to ensure the accuracy of this map. Perhaps we could even use it as one of our sources (what do others think of this idea?). Do you have a link to a BBC news story or web page that includes the map (for the date and a bit of context)? Evzob (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

These two [55] [56] use it.--AM666999 (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Evzob (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

As for the Somaliland-SSC conflict in the North, here is a Somalia Report article which confirms that the newly declared SSC state is called "Khatumo", but denies that Buuhoodle was taken by Somaliland, saying "Somaliland forces failed to seize Buhodle and were forced to flee by the local militia". [57] Evzob (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Updated Map

Thanks for the update to the map, Spesh! It looks good. Once I'm back from vacation I'll take a look myself and see what else needs to be updated, and hopefully later make an SVG version. What ever happened to EllesworthSK's update? I've been out of touch for awhile. Evzob (talk) 11:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The map claims Afmadow is no longer controlled by the Islamists and that Buuhoodle is not controlled by Somaliland. Any citations or proofs? 174.48.76.112 (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Map in source slightly diffrent

I was just looking at this source --> [58] and it appears that the lower left part of Somalia is still controlled by the Islamists. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm seeing some possible problems with our new map version here too. Over the next few days I'll be researching recent developments I've missed, then we can get down to seeing what needs to be fixed. It's also on my to-do list to make an SVG version for easier editing. Evzob (talk) 15:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This may not be a problem, but when I look at the map, I can't help wondering how much direct control the TFG has over Puntland, Jubaland, and Azania, the last two especially as they seem to be protected by foreign troops. Perhaps, if necessary, a new colour, such as a lighter blue, could be used for areas not under the direct control of the TFG but allied to and recognised by it. Also, what about Ximan and Xeeb?--DrewMek (talk) (formerly AM666999) 15:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Sanag Sool and Cayn

The SSC militia has formally disbanded and formed Khaatumo State, which is in firm control of Buuhoodle and some surrounding areas.XavierGreen (talk) 21:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, XavierGreen. Sounds right based on what I was reading last month, but do you have a source for the formal disbanding of the militia? More precise information on the areas controlled by Khaatumo would be good too. Evzob (talk) 09:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Its hard to find reliable information about anything in somalia these days, but some good info can be found here [[59]]. I can't find the source that stated they disbanded and formed Khaatumo, but its quite clear that Khaatumo is in control of at least Buuhoodle and possibly some surrounding villages.XavierGreen (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, SomaliaReport covered most of this too. I'll keep an eye on it for when I get a chance to update the map. Evzob (talk) 20:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Alphabet

I'm not sure about Wikipedia policy or guidelines of this, but theoretically the English and Somali alphabets are different, as the same letters have different sounds in some cases, so Somali "X" as English "H" and Somali "Q" as English "G" might be desirable.--DrewMek (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, some of the letters in the Somali alphabet are pronounced differently than in English. The original creator of the map did it all consistently in Somali. If I redo the map as an SVG, maybe we can at least label the most recognizable places based on their common English spellings. It's tricky to be consistent this way though - since the Somali alphabet is already based on the Latin letters, there's no standard "anglicization" - which means English names are all created on an ad hoc basis. I'm actually thinking maybe the solution is to keep the Somali names, and then put commonly attested English names in parentheses. Evzob (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

For stylistic reasons, perhaps you should also use inverted commas, as it emphasises that those spellings were created ad hoc, as you said (e.g. Ximan iyo Xeeb ("Himan and Heeb")).--DrewMek (talk) 20:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yeah that's an idea. I'll consider doing that. Though I feel like the parentheses might be enough, especially since ad hoc names for many more prominent places have been sort of informally conventionalized (e.g. "Mogadishu", or "x" -> "h" in general). Evzob (talk) 09:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess technically you could say "Mogadishu" has been formally conventionalized, since it appears in English dictionaries and formal documents. But there are a lot of other towns that have been in the news enough to have semi-conventionalized spellings too. Evzob (talk) 09:14, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Awdal

Where's the secessionist Awdal, should it be presented on the map? 222.255.201.15 (talk) 04:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

• They may have declared secession back in 2010, but there has been news of it since. One would think the Somaliland-based media would have many articles on it (as they tend to do about the rest of Somalia), but they haven't. I think that the addition of Awdalland is based off of old information and should be reversed unless and until someone can provide something a little more recent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.172.228.7 (talk) 04:11, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • There is a minor secessionist movement there but it controls no territory, the map is grossly inaccurate in this regard.XavierGreen (talk) 21:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Update

Could the map be updated?

BBC, AFP and others are saying that Kismayo has come under ground assault via naval landing and been captured by AMISOM/TFG/kenyan army. [60], [61] --U5K0'sTalk_{Make WikiLove not WikiWar} 12:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

There has also been reports that al-Shabaab abandoned (and surrendered) their positions in Jowhar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.40.35 (talk) 08:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Wanla Weyn has been confirmed to be the latest town siezed by the advancing African Union troops north of Mogadishu. "The AU mission in Somalia (AMISOM), which also seized the Balli Doogle airstrip on Sunday, have now advanced over 90 kilometres (55 miles) northwest from Mogadishu since launching an offensive outside the city in May. 'Somali government forces with the support of AMISOM troops have secured the strategic town of Wanla Weyn on the Afgoye to Baidoa corridor,' said Andrew Gutti, commander of the 17,000-strong AMISOM force." [62], [63]

Considering this development, the map should be updated with Federal Republic of Somalia occupation extended Northwest along the highway from Afgooye to Wanla Weyn.--68.65.56.197 (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's a map could be used as a reference, too: [64] Farolif (talk) 23:26, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

addition to the map.

When I look at the map I see a lot of city names, but what is between those names? are there small villages (1-10 families)? single farms? uninhabited? is it uninhabitable?

Maybe a twin map, an overlayed map or a map place under this map in the article.

I think this would give a clearer look on how strategic a city is and how easily al-shabab and AMISOM/Somalia can access/attack/take over the next village/town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.48.163.4 (talk) 09:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this map shows approximate control. There is no way for us to know which villages, from thousands upon thousands in central and southern Somalia, are controlled by whom. Even finding such map is virtually impossible. EllsworthSK (talk) 22:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

This map is woefully outdated

The map appears to have been last adjusted in March of 2013. Since it has been over a year it is probably time to do an update with the current status of all entities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.208.236 (talk) 08:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Not really. Since AMISON has taken Kismayo there haven´t been any proper moves by Somali government or its African allies. Jillib and other major towns you see on map under Shabaab control, are under Shabaab control. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:00, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Jilib is actually one of the last towns in Middle Juba under insurgent control. In April alone, government forces and their AMISOM allies captured over ten towns in six different southern provinces [65]. It has also just launched this week a final push on Al-Shabaab's remaining bastions in Gedo [66]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Update

Ok, since operations in Hiran and Lower Shabellaha, together with those in Middle Shabellaha are ongoing, with aim to capture Jalalaqsi and Barawa, I´d like to ask if anyone has any information about status of

• Gedo - especially town Bardera
• Middle Jubba in general - including Buale
• Bay - the countryside that we have marked as under al-Shabaab
• coastal area north of Mogadishu. Lots of reports these days refer to Barawa as "last port city of al-Shabaab", not mentioning Mareeg, whole Mudug region, southern Galguduud

EllsworthSK (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

And for future reference - Qansax dheere under government control [67], Jalalaqsi under government control [68], Kurtunwaare under government control [69]

BBC Update

At the bottom of this article you'll see that Al-Shabaab has expanded their territorial control compared to the current map. I don't know how to edit it so for anyone who'd like to, here's a good reference to work off of. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33282778 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.249.3.143 (talk) 15:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)