File talk:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1635.png

This map should be dated 1619-1629, not 1635

For 10 years between 1619 and 1629 the Commonwealth was at its greatest geographical extent in history. In 1619 the Russo-Polish Truce of Deulino came into effect, whereby Russia conceded Commonwealth control over Smolensk and several other border territories. In 1629 the Swedish-Polish Truce of Altmark came into effect, whereby the Commonwealth conceded Swedish control over most of Livonia, which the Swedes had invaded in 1626. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All there were only truces of greater Swedish-Polish wars. And in 1635 Treaty of Stuhmsdorf was not a peace treaty but only truce. Only peace Treaty of Oliva de iure conceaded Livonia to Sweden. Mathiasrex (talk) 12:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So maybe I am confused, because at WP:Truce of Altmark 1629 it says: "The conditions of the truce allowed Sweden to retain control of Livonia". On the subject of Livonia, is there much of a difference between Altmark and Oliva ? -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:25, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between truce and peace is that only latter has weight in international relations. Truce describes only interim status quo. So in Polish historical atlas Livonia is marked as formally Polish untill peace of Oliva in 1660. Mathiasrex (talk) 06:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably right but I am still not 100% satisfied about accuracy here. Firstly I'm not even certain that the issue here is 'de facto' v. 'de jure'.

Compare the cession of Kiev to Russia... it was only de jure many years after Poland failed to pay the ransom for the city, but I have never seen a map showing the de jure border, only the de facto border which became the de jure border. Does WP have a policy on whether maps should show de facto or de jure borders?

If WP:Swedish Livonia contradicts this map, then either the article or the map is wrong. Do 100% of Polish historical atlases say Livonia is marked as formally Polish until peace of Oliva in 1660? Is there source consensus in Poland? Because there is not international source consensus, and no credible sources are superior to others. The Times Concise Atlas of World History has a map of the Swedish Empire, showing Livonia was incorporated in 1629. The Polish Way by Adam Zamoyski has a 1635 map with Livonia marked as Swedish territory. What about e.g. Swedish or Latvian sources - are they the same? I think we should get an RFC from MILHIST about this, or invite Latvian and Swedish eds into the discussion.

Alternatively, I think we can agree that if this 1635 map was dated 1620 instead, there would be no possibility of doubt, and absolutely 100% WP:CONSENSUS between us that it is accurate on both de facto and de jure terms, right? -Chumchum7 (talk) 07:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]