File talk:Islam in Europe-2010.svg

It's spelled "Liechtenstein".--Kloth (talk) 06:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Changes and Sources

1) Bulgaria
Stats for official census in year 2001, where answering the Religion question(including the answer None) was obligatory, show ratio of Muslims in Bulgaria as 12.2%, the same census shows the ratio of Turks, the main Muslim community in Bulgaria, as 9.4%. And the population of Bulgaria in total is 7,932,984 in year 2001.

Then, in census for the year 2011, the obligation to give an answer to the religion question(including answer None) was lifted. As a result, 22% of whole Bulgaria, 1,606,269 people, didn't give an answer to this question. This doesn't mean Muslim numbers decreased. It also doesn't mean those who didn't answer has no religion, cause it was possible to pick the answer No religion. And even when 10% of whole Bulgaria, 736,981 people didn't answer the ethnicity question; ratio of Turks didn't change drastically, being at 8.8%. The population of Bulgaria in total is 7,364,570 in year 2011, not changing drastically as well.

So it's not a healthy approach to the reality if this is based on the census where one-fourth of whole country didn't state a religion. So, it must be based on 2001 census and other recent reports around 2011 or 2016 like this one. Even if it needs to be based on 2011 census, then the ratio of Muslims to the total number who answered the question for religion must be taken which still stands at more than 10% (10.1% here), not the ratio to the whole population where 22% didn't answer.

An 2009 PEW report puts Muslims in Bulgaria as 12.2%. The PEW report here from just July in 2016, puts the Muslims in Bulgaria at 13.7%.

2) Kazakhstan
Country is on map. With wrong color. Official census shows Muslims as 70.2%.

3) Greece
Greece is a country where defining oneself as "Turkish" is not legal and calling youself Turkish may end you up in jail. And Muslim population in Greece is subject to several government campaigns against their identity and continuity. Human Rights Watch report here

So instead of Greek census, the PEW reports, show that Greece has a 5.3% Muslim population.

4) Albania
According to the 2011 Albanian census, 56.7% of the population adhere to Islam (see Islam in Albania).

5) Montenegro
In this case, I see the last census puts the Muslims at around 19.11%. A 2016 report here puts them for 2016 at 19.41%. And some other sources put them between 19.6%-20%. Noting that last census has 5% citizens who didn't declare their religious affiliation and since it's a lot more healthier to classify it as 20% category than as 10% category, I suggest to put Montenegro one level up.

6) Ireland
It was shown as 1-2% in description and 0-1% percent on the map. I fixed that. And here is PEW Report on EU countries' Muslim populations. Ireland has 1.1% Muslim population.

7) Turkey
People are assigned a religion at birth in Turkey. If your parents are Muslims, you are born as Muslim, if they are Christians or Jews, you bare born as a Christian or Jew officially. So the official data in Turkey, not at all, show the true number of people who are intensely associated with Islam. Reports 1, 2 and 3 from SeekerDaily, PEW and WIN-Gallup show that 73% of Muslims in Turkey are cultural Muslims or denominational Muslims meaning they are irreligious but just associated with Islam under the name or with certain but limited actions. These reports further show that only 15% of all Muslims in Turkey say one of the five prayers (an obligation of Islam) either at home or in mosque. Another point which the reports highlight is only 7% to 13% of all Muslims in Turkey states that they want Islam to have a direct or indirect effect on national laws.

Since the irreligiousity is this high in Turkey and people are officially given a religion at birth, censuses doesn't show the amount of people who associate theirsevles with any religion, and furthermore, not showing the amount of people without religion, deists, atheists or agnostics. A report in Turkish here puts them around 4-5%. Furthermore, the WIN Gallup research, besides stating that 73% of Turkey's population says "they are not religious", 4% says "they have no answer" and just 23% says "they are religious"; the report also states that "2% of the population are convinced Atheists" and another 2% didn't say "no" to the question if they are atheists. So this research matches with the Turkish source on the notion that 4-6% of Turkey's population are atheists and deists, not including those who believes in a superiority but doesn't associate with any religion.

So, it's safer to put Turkey to 90-95%, instead of 95-100% with the official data which claims the country's 99.8% Muslim.

8) North and South Cyprus
It seems, I made a miscalculation. I calculated the ratio of Muslims with datas from both countries as 32%, however when I did it again, its 28%. So, I'm sorry about that.

In light of these, I will be certainly changing; Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Ireland and Greece. I'm planning to not rely on census data for Albania with lots of undeclared and Turkey, which has a system of appointing religion at birth. And I'm open to hearing what you think on my suggestion regarding Montenegro. Berkaysnklf (talk), 14:23, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

There are various researches. According to this one from 2011, Montenegro falls within 10-20%, Greece - under 5%, Albania - 82%. Unlike the censuses, it is unclear if these researches calculate the irreligious people in their estimates. The 2001 censuses you cited had restrictions towards irreligious people. At the latest 2011 censuses the irreligious or religious population declared their belief without restrictions. This does not mean that irreligious people (according to the censuses) would declare a religion on the pew research. It means that the methodology of the pew research is limited or biased. I thought you may change the ranges from 10-20 to 5-15 for example, so both pew researches and censuses would be considered in the range. Otherwise, what is the sense in replacing the censuses with just one of the pew researches of a few individuals?--The pacific ocean (talk) 20:16, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

And again, the source you put also confirms most of the notions I put before. Which country's census are you referring to? If its Bulgaria's, 2001 census did not have restrictions towards people without a religious affiliation. And on line with this, 2011 census didn't have an option for "irreligious people", it just had a "I dont wish to respon" option, which can also be the case with people who does their religious duties but don't want to response to the official question as a result of many possible factors; fear, discrimination, information privacy, etc. Cause not so much time ago, only 30-35 years before Muslims (mainly Turks) in Bulgaria was forced to change their names into Christian names and around 300,000 was forced to leave Bulgaria; which can simply be the reason why someone wouldn't want to response to an official question about religion. So in light of all these, I suggest we stick to independent research like PEW, or WIN-Gallup, or Seeker, when it is more plausible and healthy to use them instead of censuses. Just like another editor, messaged me about we should use PEW researches or the like; here we are using them; just it's more recent reports, cause there is a simple fact that the 2010-2011 report which is shown as a source to the page is no longer available. Because, there has been a ton of new reports published and it is outdated now.

For the Montenegro, as I said in its own explanation; I know its not 20% exactly; but I just suggested if we put it in 20% level, that could better reflect the reality.

In conclusion, as a result of all the newer reports, including those from organizations such as PEW, which I was encouraged to use by other editors, and the outdated independent resource shown in the page and some censuses which are not healthy to use; the data for Turkey, Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Greece has been corrected. And I think Albania should at least be in 60-70% level, if not 70-80%.

I will correct color of Cyprus in the map, sorry for the calculation mistake on it. And if you don't agree with my notion about Montenegro regarding it would better reflect the reality if we show it in 20% level instead of 10% level since it has a ratio so close to 20%; I will change Montenegro's color and level again.

Current sources are not available, so do not revert the file back again before using the talk page. Berkaysnklf (talk), 20:50, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

In fact, there are indications that hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims (Greeks) boycotted the Albania and Kosovo census, which means that the ratio of Muslims is more likely to drop than rise there. There are low estimates for Muslims in Russia at between 5% and 15%. Religion is not obligatory and the pew polls counts a large number of irreligious people too. The polls can not make many of the asked to reveal a belief or a secret religion that they did not mention at the census for some reason, but let's assume a large majority would state the truth. Religion is an obligatory definition for the pew polls as much as for the censuses. In Europe sometimes the majority of the people are irreligious, in the Balkans up to 39% in Bulgaria per en:List of countries by irreligion. Census results are consistent with the polls on irreligious people. At Balkan censuses those who feel like Muslim now declare such identity without restrictions by law. I don't see a provided evidence in support of that the polls give better freedom of expressing Muslim identity than 2011 censuses. By law, it is the right of the enumerated people to answer or don't answer the question by themselves. Those who did not mention a religion or for some reason chose not to state the truth, do not identify as Muslim according to the censuses or the pew research. And the polls do not seem to have the thing to make such people change their mind or answer any much better than the census. People with Muslim names are obviously Muslim to the government, all Muslim settlements are controlled by a Muslim minority party in Bulgaria, which appoints their enumerators and may otherwise suggests that the number of Christians is reduced there. It is obvious that each statistic may be fake and corrupted. Let's assume that censuses and pew polls may experience falsification, so using both estimates with an interval in between is fine. If choosing one of the two, the census does not seem less comprehensive due to the more sizable questioned population than the pew research. --The pacific ocean (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Greece is a country where defining oneself as "Turkish" is not legal and calling youself Turkish may end you up in jail. You must be joking right? Otherwise you are just making this up. And with that, you dismiss the census, just like that. Unless you have a reliable source that calls into question the census, you are just ORing big time, and your arguments cannot be taken seriously. Athenean (talk) 04:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Same thing with Albania. Wherever census results are not to your liking, you just make up some excuse to dismiss them. I mean, it's just a coincidence that all your changes are towards increasing the percentage of Muslims, especially in countries that Turkey is "interested" in (so to speak). Except Turkey itself, where you are making up reasons to decrease the percentage of Muslims (because we all know Turkey is "European", right?). Your POV-pushing is very transparent. Athenean (talk) 04:30, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

You are the one who suggested me to rely on PEW Resources! (The Islam by country in Europe template and map are based on the Pew report from 2011 used here.) This is what you have said. And 2010-2011 PEW report "source" is not available. I'm updating the map with newer PEW and WIN-Gallup resources! You are contradicting with your own self! It is not at all healthy to take Bulgaria's census where 22% of country didn't answer the question of religion as a base when all other reports show at least 12% Muslim presence for example. And it is not at all healthy to rely on Turkey's data cause there is no religion question in censuses and people are assigned a religion at birth, unlike any other country I'm proposing to update. And I made no comment over Albania, stop making stuff up to lie about me; I just put two sources which suggest Albania has more than what is shown. And I explained everything in my first comment one by one. I pointed that Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey and Kazakhstan definitely needs the update. Following that, I explained Albania and Montenegro can be updated too with those notions.

For the Greece; I sent the Human Rights Watch report, all incidents are documented there if you please yourself to read.

For your conspiracy theory, you are just paranoid about what I try to update, so I will not try to explain you anything over that. Berkaysnklf (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

The HRW report refers to events 20 years ago or older. Nor does it say the census should not be trusted. Nice try though. The new Pew report is influenced by recent refugees and migrants, whose presence is very temporary. In addition to the problem of WP:RECENT, these people are not permanent residents and should not be counted. As for your "notions" about Albania and Montengro, they are just that, notions. Please do not confuse them with reliable sources, of which you have none. Athenean (talk) 03:27, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Renaming

As a result of the newer and independent sources, and updating of the outdated PEW source given as a source in the description of the image; I further suggest that we change the name of the file, either taking out phrase "2010" or finding an alternative name. Berkaysnklf (talk), 21:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)