Talk:Ella Sheppard

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Moved here from usertalk for better housekeeping:

Re: "Draft:Ella Sheppard"... Several reliable references have been added. Is the article ready to re-submit? Please advise. Nina07011960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the Princeton catalog, this is to show the breadth of the repertoire of the Fisk Jubilee Singers. Ella Sheppard is not given credit as the arranger of the Spirituals. Nina07011960 (talk)

@Nina07011960: I left a rather detailed comment when I reviewed the page, giving specific examples of the issues that need to be improved (though the list of examples was not exhaustive, of course). If you have addressed those issues (everywhere, not just regarding those specific examples), the draft is ready to be resubmitted. To me, however, it seems you have not fixed those issues I mentioned in my comment. Many of the sources you added actually are not reliable by Wikipedia's standards (that includes Wikipedia itself), and several others do not mention Sheppard and thus cannot provide any information about her and have no place in an article about her. That was one of the issues I explicitly mentioned, and to me it seems it has gotten worse, not better. Huon (talk) 22:18, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by "gotten worse"? I think your definition of "reliable sources," again, has not taken into account the difficulty in finding the archives of "Negro" publications online. Since you are not clear, all I can do is add more sources. You deleted information which was well documented and appeared in several sources. Nina07011960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:44, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

By "gotten worse" I mean that the number of references that don't mention Sheppard has increased. Those sources might be useful in articles on topics they actually discuss, but not in an article on Sheppard. Also, that's not "my definition" but Wikipedia's; both in my review of the draft and above I provided links that point to WP:Identifying reliable sources. I'm pretty sure I mentioned before that while Wikipedia requires sources to be published, they don't have to be published online. The Library of Congress should have archived every newspaper or magazine published in the US, "Negro" or otherwise. Huon (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. The only reference that doesn't mention Sheppard by name is the Princeton Catalog, which is there to show their repertoire. Which references are you referring to? Nina07011960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

How do I add the accents for "protege"? Nina07011960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Nina07011960, at the bottom of the edit screen is an "insert" dropdown, and if you select "Latin" it will give you text with Latin inputs. If you know your Alt/ASCII codes, you could do Alt+1 3 0 to get é. The other option would be to copy/paste the accented letters from other uses online. Primefac (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC) (talk page stalker)

@Nina07011960: I don't see Sheppard mentioned in the excerpt from Queen Victoria's memoirs (reference 17), in the Dvořák American Heritage Association article (reference 19), the Guardian's Symphony Guide (reference 20) or the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on the New World Symphony (reference 21). Maybe you could quote short excerpts from those sources that mention her? The last two of those four sources were added after my review where I commented on the problem of sources that don't mention the subject of the article. Huon (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

dvoraknyc.org, Dvorak American Heritage..., and "Guardian..." references were added to show proof of the use of the Spiritual by Dvorak. Ditto for Brittanica.com. It mentions the name of the Spiritual, "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," which was quoted in the Symphony. Nina07011960 (talk) I think this entry of the Queen Victoria memoirs is an edited version. Haven't been able to find the unedited version online. Nina07011960 (talk)

The specific statement those sources are cited for is: "It was the melody of Sheppard's arrangement of the spiritual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" that was sung to Czech composer Antonín Dvořák by his student Harry Burleigh in New York, which was quoted in the first movement of his Symphony from the New World." The sources might confirm that Burleigh sang that spiritual to Dvořák, but how do they confirm that it was Sheppard's arrangement? That part is the only connection between Dvořák and Sheppard, and it's not backed up. Huon (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Sheppard's arrangement was the only published arrangement at that time. Do I need to re-use the sources that show this? Nina07011960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:04, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Even that wouldn't help. How do you know that the version Burleigh sang was based on a published arrangement? The spiritual itself is much older, so why couldn't he have sung some traditional version?

You're trying to engage in original synthesis: Instead of summarizing what reliable published sources report about Sheppard, you have a preconceived notion what the draft should say and then try to make use of sources that, while none of them confirms your given text, confirm something each that, with good faith and combination, can be made into an almost-confirmation of your text. Wikipedia unfortunately does not accept original synthesis. If you want the article to say that Sheppard's work inspired Dvořák, you'll need to find a source that confirms that claim. Huon (talk) 19:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the Fisk Jubilee Singers pages, several sources state that Ella Sheppard's arrangement of the Spiritual became famous in the US because of their recording of "Swing Low..." I'm looking for evidence of Burleigh's use of her arrangement. Nina07011960 (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's a source: Look at the dates. Nina07011960 (talk) 18:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's another source: Nina07011960 (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

"George (White) began collecting and arranging these 'secret songs,' with the help of his secretary, Ella Sheppard, who brought him 'O Freedom' and 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,' lullabies her mother had taught her. In time, White and Sheppard collected over a hundred songs. In 1871, Fisk was on the brink of ..." from . Nina07011960 (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Keep in mind that many men of that era tried to keep her from getting credit from her work. I'm sure I don't have to explain sexism to you. Nina07011960 (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

You don't have to explain sexism. You have to explain where any of those sources connects Sheppard and Dvořák. Not in the sources and we have to connect the dots ourselves? That's original synthesis, a kind of original research, and Wikipedia does not accept it. We could discuss whether Burleigh would have needed to rely on someone else's arrangement of a song he learned from his grandfather, but it doesn't matter either way: If the sources do not explicitly confirm Burleigh sang Sheppard's arrangement to Dvořák, that statement has no place on Wikipedia. Maybe a scholarly journal on music history would be a better venue for that information. Huon (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Well I added the quote from John Work stating he was informed of the facts directly from Sarah Sheppard, AND the source. And Burleigh's grandfather would have heard the Jubilee Singers' recording, according to those dates, which was heard all over the South. Why are you automatically accepting a man's version of history, and not a woman's? I know the answer. Typical... I'll remove the reference to Burleigh, then.Nina07011960 (talk) 21:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

You have been warned about personal attacks before. If you're convinced that everybody who disagrees with you does so for nefarious reasons, there's nothing to discuss. Huon (talk) 22:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Can you please hand this project over to someone who is more helpful. I believe your bias is clouding your judgement. Thank you. Nina07011960 (talk) 20:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nina07011960: First of all, I should apologize; I got confused and it wasn't you who was recently warned about personal attacks. So please consider this a warning: Wikipedia does not allow personal attacks, and you have quite a history of underhanded accusations of racism and/or sexism against other editors for no reason other than disagreeing with you. If you keep that up, it's not going to end well.

That said, there's no "project" I could hand over to someone else. I reviewed your draft and gave a very detailed explanation of why it currently does not meet Wikipedia's standards. That's the entirety of my involvement. Earlier someone else reviewed the draft; the next review would be by someone else. I would advise you to address the issues I pointed out, though; otherwise you'd just waste another reviewer's time to get the draft declined for the same reason again. Huon (talk) 21:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I removed 3 references. If you don't see Ella Sheppard's name in the reference, it is because the particular reference is regarding the use of the Spiritual in the New World Symphony, or the details behind the formation of the Fisk Jubilee Quartet. Nina07011960 (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Then those might make good references for our articles on the New World Symphony or the Fisk Jubilee Quartet, but not for an article on Ella Sheppard. As I said before, linking events to Sheppard when the sources don't do so is original synthesis and not acceptable on Wikipedia. Huon (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced content

The article is chock-full of unsourced content added to promote Sheppard and her family. I've tried cleaning it up a little, but I didn't get everything yet. I wonder whether rewriting it from scratch is the easier solution; I'm about to doubt every single sentence that I haven't checked. Huon (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Nina07011960 has again added unsourced claims about Sheppard being "front and center" when the Fisk Jubilee Singers sang for Queen Victoria and about Sheppard's arrangement of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" being sung to Dvořák. There is no source connecting Sheppard to Dvořák. Since I have explained original synthesis (and that it's not acceptable) to Nina07011960 before, I find it difficult to see how this might be an innocent mistake.

I'll also remove the content about the painting. It's largely off-topic and also apparently factually wrong; according to the source, Sheppard is the third from the left, not the one at the piano. Either way, having been painted once hardly is significant information about Sheppard. Huon (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Huon, you are incorrect. Sheppard is seated at the keyboard in the painting. Online there are 2 versions on the painting; one is backwards. But either way, she is the one seated at the keyboard. If you look at the sources, you will see that the information as I have written it is correct. I don't know what your problem is! Nina07011960 (talk) 02:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

There is another painting which shows Sheppard as being "front and center" before The Queen. Shall I add that picture also? These paintings were done by Victoria's court painter. If you would read just the details from "Dark Midnight..." you would see that all of this is true. Or just Google the paintings. This harassment is most annoying. 03:02, 17 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nina07011960 (talk • contribs)

And Jubilee Hall is important to include because the Jubilee Singers raised the money to build that structure - the FIRST permanent structure built in the United States for the purpose of educating freed slaves.Nina07011960 (talk) 03:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I have consulted the Head Librarian at Fisk University regarding this article, and she gave her highest compliments. Hmmmm... You are the only one who has problems with this article. Several music scholars have read it and approved it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nina07011960 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I lost track of this article and didn't notice that my changes were reverted. Unsourced content is not acceptable on Wikipedia, no matter who "read it and approved it". If those music scholars know of reliable published sources that connect Sheppard to Dvořák, they're welcome to present them. Same for the Head Librarian. Would those music scholars accept term papers from their students that contain assertions without evidence? I am doubtful. Huon (talk) 10:46, 29 October 2018 (UTC)