Category talk:American people of Russian descent

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The category strongly intersects with Category:Russian people in the United States but somehow different:

1. Category:Russian-Americans is for Americans of Russian ethinic background, it probably should not include Jews, Ukrainians, etc.
2. It also exludes Russians who did not receive American passport.
3. On the other hand it includes people with little connection to Russian culture who probably does not qualify to be Russians in America (like Saul Bellow) but has Russian ancestors.

Should we merge the categories, make one a subcategory of the other or keep both? abakharev 03:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

No one on this list is actually Russian, all these "Russian" Americans are Jews.

• Well, Vladimir Nabokov is certainly not a Jew but a Russian nobleman, but yes, most of the people in the category are not ethnical Russians but Askkenazi Jews (mostly Litvaks) abakharev 04:59, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Category description

Jayjg (talk · contribs) unilaterally decided to impose his interpretation of this category by changing its description, without discussion, from "American people who immigrated to the United States from Russia and their descendants" to "American people who immigrated to the United States from Russia, or who are described in reliable sources as being 'Russian-American'". I oppose this change and invite others to discuss here. Ward3001 (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. In any event, Category definitions, like everything else in Wikipedia, must comply with WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLP. That means that Wikipedia editors don't decide who is "Russian-American"; rather, reliable sources do, and, when it comes to biographies of living people, we immediately remove the category if there are no reliable sources that state a person is a "Russian-American". Jayjg ^(talk) 18:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Please give us the specific statements in WP:BLP that prohibit the Category:Russian-Americans from including people who are descendants of Russians who immigrated to the United States, if it is reliably sourced that a person is such a descendant. Ward3001 (talk) 19:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This is not Category:Descendants of Russian immigrants to America. This is Category:Russian-Americans. Therefore, rather than finding sources that say they are descended from people who emigrated from Russia to America, you need sources describing them as "Russian-Americans". You have not produced any reliable sources doing so. The specific statements in the policy are clear:

Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies, especially Neutral point of view (NPOV); Verifiability; No original research

It's hard to miss, it's the first paragraph. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no, Jayjg. That's your interpretation of BLP as well as your interpretation of the term "Russian-American". I think if you look around, you'll see many people described on Wikipedia as "Italian-American" who are several generations away from their ancestors who were Italian citizens. You'll see people described as African-American who also are many generations from Africa, and NOT because they are ethnically "Negro", but because they are American citizens whose ancestors lived in Africa. I want the specific words in WP:BLP that prohibits inclusion of grandchildren of Russians who immigrated to the United States. You alone do not decide how to intepret BLP. As has been pointed out on another page, you are an administrator, not God. You're not even Jimbo. So please give the specific wording that prohibits including granchildren. If you can't give us that, then we are all quibbling about interpretation, not "violation of content policies". If you continue this POV-pushing and air of superiority because you're an admin, we'll just have to take this to a discussion board about BLP. Ward3001 (talk) 19:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Whenever an issue is raised regarding WP:BLP and correct sourcing, then we don't need to waste a lot of time arguing about interpretations. All we do is look at the source, and see if it is a) reliable, and b) clearly states what has been included in the article. Does the source clearly state a person is "African-American" or "Italian-American" or "Russian-American"? If so, great, use the category. If not, it stays out. Regarding the rest, yes, you have made many personal comments about me here and on other pages. Stop doing so. Comment on content, not on the contributor.. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll stop commenting on the contributor if the contributor behaves like a reasonable editor rather than supreme ruler of Wikipedia. And you still have not given us the words in WP:BLP that excludes grandchildren. Ward3001 (talk) 19:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the second sentence, I don't have to show you a special "grandchildren" policy; rather, you need to find a reliable source describing the person as "Russian-American", per WP:V, WP:NOR, and especially WP:BLP. See also Rob's comments. Regarding the first, Comment on content, not on the contributor. No excuses. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

A category can only have one name on Wikipedia, whereas there may be many ways of describing the same thing. For example there are many Jewish actors, and a category by that name, but it's often harder to find an article from a reliable source that uses the exact phrase "Jewish actor". This does not matter. If any reliable source says jewish and any reliable source says actor, then you have a jewish actor. This is neither unsourced, nor original research, nor should it be contentious. It does not in any way violate WP:BLP or WP:V. In the same manner, no one has to find a source that uses the exact phrase "Russian-American". You just have to find, through reliable sources, that the person is a) American and b) of Russian descent. To demand that sources have use the exact name chosen for a Wikipedia category, according to Wikipedia naming policies, i ludicrous. Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Categories says: "The article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced." That is to say: The information content must be sourced; there's no requirement for a source using the exact same term or phrase. -Duribald (talk) 23:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If you have two sources, one of which says a person is "Jewish", and another that he is an "actor", then you can add the Category "Jewish actor". Similarly, if you have two sources, one of which says the person is "Russian", and the other that the person is "American", then you can add the Category "Russian-American". However, what you cannot do, for example, is take a source which says the person has two paternal grandparents who are "Russian Jews" who emigrated to America, and add the category "Russian-American" to that individual. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)