Category talk:First-run syndicated television programs in the United States

Inclusion of "foreign" programs in this category

I think that inclusion of "foreign" progams (or programmes) in this category is problematic. First of all, it assumes a US POV, and treats the original broadcast outside of the US as unimportant. Second, the way that programming from outside of the US was normally aired in the US is somewhat different from the usual model of first-run syndication: I think that the purchase of 'Allo 'Allo! or Doctor Who by PBS stations, for example, is a somewhat different system from the way that, say, Star Trek: The Next Generation was aired (for one thing, the usual syndication model ensures that the same episode will air in each market in the same week, something that was never true of PBS syndication). I'm going to be bold and remove the "foreign" description from this category, and remove "foreign" progams from it as well. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I remember 'Allo Allo airing not on PBS but on WPIX where I grew up in New York City. Benny Hill aired on WWOR. I'm not trying to include shows that aired on PBS though I may be wrong about Doctor Who. The episodes that were syndicated in the US were first-run and were syndicated in the manner that you described. If Benny Hill had aired on NBC instead of syndication, would it be US-centric to list it as an NBC show? But the reason why I included foreign shows is because of the article on Television syndication. In said article it states:

first-run syndication refers to programming that is broadcast for the first time as a syndicated show, or at least first so offered in a given country (foreign programs, first presented on a network in their country of origin, have often been syndicated in the U.S. and in some other countries)

So that is what I'm going by. If you feel that the article should also be changed then I suppose you could change it. But maybe it should be up discussed before being so bold. MrBlondNYC 05:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected on 'Allo 'Allo! and Benny Hill — however, I wager that when these programs were aired on the channels you mention it was in a manner closer to that explained in Television syndication#Off-network syndication. Specifically, I doubt that there was any attempt by the syndicator to ensure that a station in New York aired a specific episode of Benny Hill on the same day or in the same week that it was aired on a station in Los Angeles. That's a key distinction between first-run syndication and off-network syndication: wherever Wheel of Fortune airs, it's the same episode on January 16 in Chicago that it is in Atlanta, even if the stations that air it have no other connection.

If you think that I've been too bold, feel free to revert me — I was operating on the bold, revert, discuss principle. We can talk this out and maybe try to get some other opinions as well.

Oh, and Doctor Who was briefly syndicated by Time-Life in 1972, so I suppose that if we decide that "foreign" programs are to be included in this category, Doctor Who would technically qualify — although it seems slightly misleading to me, since the program had very little success in syndication, and became known to most US audiences when it aired on PBS later in the '70s and '80s. Anyway, we can talk this out. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

An afterthought: I think part of my problem is with the term "first-run syndication". If the category were named in such a fashion as to indicate that it refers to "first broadcast in the United States", it would be less problematic. But "first-run syndication", to me, implies that the broadcast as a syndicated program is the first broadcast anywhere. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

But off-network syndication of recent shows is done in the same manner as first-run syndication. You may see your local station showing an ad for the particular episode of The Simpsons that will be rerun tonight. That is actually a national ad and that rerun is being shown everywhere tonight. Then your local station tacks on their ID at the end. This is different then when your local stations shows reruns of I Love Lucy on Sunday mornings. Older shows are rerun just to fill in time. But recent shows are for promotion and ratings. Getting the syndication deals for recent British programs were big deals in the 70's and 80's. What does confuse me is that PBS may have been included in these syndication deals. Meaning, that even though Allo Allo aired on the local independent station where I grew up, maybe in other cities it aired on their local PBS station.

I'd liked to reiterate that I don't think putting first-run syndication is being US-centric. For example 24 is categorized as a "Fox network show" and a "Sky One programme". It airs on Fox here and Sky One in UK. Seinfeld aired on NBC here and Citytv in Canada and is categorized as such. Benny Hill aired on ITV there and on syndication here. If it aired on NBC here, then we could "NBC network show". But it was first-run syndicated here. The US is the only country that has this first-run syndication thing we have so even putting "American first-run..." is not necessary. So as long as the show is categorized under its original network, it's not ignoring that network by listing how it aired in other countries. MrBlondNYC 07:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

What you're saying about including both country-of-origin broadcast and US broadcast does make sense. But it still seems to me that using the term "first-run syndication" for a program that has already aired in another country is misleading, unless it's qualified somehow to indicate that the term refers to American broadcast. I've put a note at Talk:Television syndication to see if we can get some other opinions — if there's a consensus that "first-run syndication" isn't misleading in this context, I won't protest. "First-run" still bugs me, though. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Your new description is also misleading. Many shows such as Jeopardy! and other game shows, Punky Brewster and a few other shows started as network shows and then went to first-run syndication. So it's not true to say "programs broadcast for the first time as a syndicated show". Now, I finally understand your problem with the term "first-run". It doesn't necessarily mean that the show itself premiered as a syndicated show. It means that these are new episodes premiering in first-run syndication. MrBlondNYC 19:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here. I wasn't thinking that "first-run" necessarily meant that the program first aired (debuted) in syndication, just that for at least part of the show's run, the first time a given episode aired it was as part of a syndication packet. (In other words, whether the show "premiered" in the US on a network or in syndication isn't what I was talking about.) That said, I do see the ambiguity you're now indicating. Can you think of a better wording for the category page that would indicate that we're not talking about where a program debuted, but whether any part of a show's run aired first (in the US) in syndication?

My issue is that "first-run" to me suggests the worldwide debut of a given episode, not just the US debut. I'm also wondering if we could resolve this by renaming the category. How about Category:Television programs which aired in the United States in first-run syndication? It's a bit long-winded, but it allows for the inclusion of programs like Benny Hill and even Doctor Who in a way that isn't misleading. Would you mind if I proposed this name change at CfD? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the original description which I copied from the article for television syndication describes it perfectly. Since "first-run syndication" only applies to the US, it's just as unnecessary as putting "Television programs which aired in the United States on NBC". I hate to keep saying "NBC" but it's easy for me. Other countries do have syndicated reruns but it's still part of the programming of a national network. They don't have local affiliates like we have here. But yes, maybe we need other people's opinions on this. MrBlondNYC 02:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the distinction is whether you regard "first-run syndication" as a unitary concept, which applies only to the broadcasting system of the United States, or as composed of the elements "first-run" and "syndication", each of which could apply to broadcasting in any country. I suggest we give it a few days to see if anyone comes in from Talk:Television syndication; if after a few days it's still just us, I suppose we can as for a third opinion or file an RFC. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been a couple of days and no word from anyone else, so I've asked for a third opinion. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion request

I would like to offer a third opinion, but would appreciate it if each side can present a summary of the arguments below.

Josiah Rowe (talk · contribs)

My perspective is that the term "first-run syndication" implies that a program first aired in syndication; thus, it is not appropriate to apply it to programs such as Doctor Who, 'Allo 'Allo! or SCTV, which aired on networks in other countries before being aired in syndication in the United States. I'd like either for programs of this type to be removed from the category, or for the category to be renamed in some way to indicate that it's a category for programs whose first American airing was in syndication. (I'd proposed Category:Television programs which aired in the United States in first-run syndication above, but I'm open to a less prolix wording if anyone can come up with one.)

MrBlondNYC can, of course, speak for himself but I'll attempt to summarize his arguments as an exercise in writing for the enemy (not that he's an "enemy" — I don't really feel that strongly about this). He sees "first-run syndication" as a unitary concept, which applies only to the American television market (see Television syndication). He argues that since only the United States has "first-run syndication", the term applies only to the American market, so no further specification is needed in the category title, and it's fine to include programs which aired first in other countries in the category. I hope that's a fair and accurate summary.

I'm concerned that readers from outside of the United States might not be familiar with the term "first-run syndication", and may read "first-run syndicated television programs as "television programs which first aired [anywhere] in syndication" — which is not true of these "foreign" shows. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Mrblondnyc (talk · contribs)

Josiah Rowe contradicts himself when he says "the term "first-run syndication" implies that a program first aired in syndication". Because he appears to have no problem with putting shows that originally aired on a network and then moved to first-run syndication in this category. Countless game shows such as Jeopardy! and other shows like Punky Brewster and 21 Jump Street continued to produce new episodes for syndication after being cancelled by their networks. Therefore, 21 Jump Street for example, can be categorized as a FOX network show as well as first-run syndication show.

But my reasoning for putting certain foreign shows in this: I feel that categorizing, for example Second City Television, as a first-run syndication program is no different than categorizing 24 (TV series) as a Sky One programme. New episodes of 24 air in the UK on Sky One. By adding the category "Sky One programmes" that doesn't mean that 24 is produced by or originally permiered on Sky One. In the US, new episodes of foreign shows that were still in production, like Allo Allo, Second City Television and Benny Hill aired in first-run syndication. First-run meaning the episdoes were premiering in syndication, not the show itself. If they had premiered on NBC instead, they could be categorized as "NBC network shows". But instead they aired in first-run syndication, so therefore they can be categorized as such. As a matter of fact, SCTV did eventually air on NBC in the 80's while it was still airing on CBC. But it can be categorized under both networks.

Any user regardless of country who doesn't understand what first-run syndication is can easily click on the term and learn what it is. The article Television syndication was pretty clear about non-US shows being syndicated before User Rowe changed it because he was concerned about it being "US-centric". Although first-run syndication is not a network, again the article explains the concept. I also feel User Rowe's proposal of a seperate category "Television programs which aired in the United States in first-run syndication" is as unnecessary as a category called "Television programs which aired in the United States on Adult Swim" simply because new episodes of many foreign shows that were in production like Bleach (manga), Trinity Blood and Inuyasha premiered there in the US. They are categorized as Adult Swim shows because that's where they premiered here (although no categories exist for their respective Japanese networks). Categorizing them as Adult Swim shows does not at all imply that the shows made their world premiere on that network. If a Japanese user were to be confused by this, they can just click on Adult Swim and learn about it. MrBlondNYC 05:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

MrBlond, by "first aired" I don't mean "debuted" — I'm not concerned about where or how the first episode of a program aired. I understand that the point of the category is to indicate where some episodes aired first. But Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia, not just an American one. My concern is about using the term "first-run" to mean "first American run". The difference between "first-run syndicated television programs" and "Adult Swim television programs" is that "Adult Swim" doesn't suggest to a reader that a program (or episodes of the program) aired first on Adult Swim. I just think that "first-run syndication" suggests... well, first run anywhere.

Also, do you disagree with my edit to Television syndication? I was trying to find a wording which avoided the term "foreign", because that assumes a US POV. Wikipedia articles should be written in a fashion that doesn't assume the readers are American (or British, or Australian, or Indian...). If you're Canadian, SCTV isn't a "foreign" program(me). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Upon further review, I completely agree with your edit to Television syndication. But when you say "the term "first-run syndication" implies that a program first aired in syndication", am I supposed to interpret "program" as "episode"? Because to me "program" means the show in general. If not then I don't know how else to take it and don't understand how this only applies to foreign shows. This may also be confusing to other users and maybe the article needs further edits. MrBlondNYC 08:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been imprecise. I should have said "episode" — it's difficult since the category is applied to programs (we're not going to categorize individual episodes by whether they aired on a network or in syndication), but for a program that aired both on a network and via first-run syndication we've got to refer to episodes, or at least seasons. Gah!

I'll try to be as clear as I can, and I'll use the example I know something about (Doctor Who). Time-Life Distributors syndicated some Doctor Who serials in the 1970s. These serials were aired via first-run syndication; for most of the episodes involved, it was their first airing in the U.S. However, it was not their first run anywhere — the episodes had aired years earlier on BBC1. So, although the episodes aired via "first-run syndication", neither those episodes nor the program as a whole were syndicated in their first run (globally speaking). Does that make sense? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion Jossi (talk · contribs)

Thanks Josiah. I'll wait for MrBlondNYC's confirmation that yours is a good summary of his argument. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your summaries. I would want to ask a question based on the premise "think of the reader". Is this categorization needed at all? What will a reader learn if a TV show is categorized in this or that manner? Maybe it is too fine a point for most readers? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I can see value in having a category which indicates to readers that (for at least part of a TV program's run) episodes aired in the US via first-run syndication. I just want the category and/or its name to be clear, and not misleading. This concern could be satisfied either by removing "foreign" programs from the category, or renaming it somehow to indicate that it's about first American run.

Another alternative might be to have a subcategory for non-US programs which aired in the US via first-run syndication. That way, shows like Jeopardy or Star Trek:The Next Generation wouldn't be burdened with an overly long category name, but shows like Doctor Who or Benny Hill wouldn't have one that's misleading. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The latter seems to be an elegant alternative. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Any thoughts on a category name? It's not the easiest concept to summarize (and, as you may have noticed, I have an unfortunate prediliction for pleonasm). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If the term "first-run syndication" is really that confusing even with a lengthy article on the subject and the networks of origin clearly stated in the shows' respective articles, then I concede to not include any non-US programs in the category. I personally don't feel a category is necessary for four shows. Especially, one with a 20-word long name. MrBlondNYC 08:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not that it's confusing as much as it is misleading. I'm not sure about whether SCTV should be in the category or not — did any episodes of SCTV air in US syndication before they aired on Canadian networks? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

No. SCTV aired on CBC first before airing in the US. MrBlondNYC 05:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

May I offer a fourth opinion? I agree with Josiah Rowe that it's misleading - even if technically accurate - to use the term first-run syndication without any qualification, however, I can see MrBlondNYC's point. May I suggest a solution similar to that used in 24's categories, as MrBlondNYC pointed out? Category:Sky One programmes, in its description, says "This category is for television programmes broadcast on Sky One in the United Kingdom. [emphasis mine]". Simply tweak the description of this category to something like "First-run syndication refers to programming that is broadcast in the United States for the first time as a syndicated show.", which removes any ambiguity from the statement. --Scott Wilson 18:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Scott Wilson. Perfect solution in my opinion. I have always felt that as long one can click on the wikilinks and get a good description, than changing the name to an overly descriptive one is not necessary. MrBlondNYC 05:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, all right. I still think the phrase "first-run syndication" is misleading, but I suppose if the category description says explicitly that it's talking about first US broadcast that's OK. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I've attempted to reword the category description in a way that is both accurate and inclusive. I've restored the category to 'Allo 'Allo, Benny Hill and Doctor Who (which I think were the three British shows I had removed it from). It's still on Second City Television. Is that the lot? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see this settled nicely. Thank you, gentlemen. MrBlondNYC 06:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Historical note about the above discussion

The discussion above was held when this category was named Category:First-run syndicated television programs. It was subsequently renamed Category:First-run syndicated television programs in the United States, per this discussion, which rather makes the above conversation moot. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)